Socialized health care

[SlingBlade]

Examples of disasters caused by government intervention in the British health care system (http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#britain)

[drbwh]

it will work! to many people dont have access to health care in the current system:rolleyes:

great website. people wont get it until it is tried and fails. Then what will we do?

[panhandler62]

In what ways do health care proposals in the US mirror those in Britian and in what ways are they different?

Throwing all healthcare regulation under a blanket and labeling it "Socialized Medicine" doesn't help us make inteligent choices.

[frankeaton]

as somebody posted earlier

where are the Canadians going to go from healthcare?

[OrangePoke]

Government run health care means no health care.

[drbwh]

i just dont understand people. not one thing(besides the military) that the govt runs is any good. why do people think health care will be any different?

[OSU Sig]

i just dont understand people. not one thing(besides the military) that the govt runs is any good. why do people think health care will be any different?

That is such a true statement. The left can't stand some wealthy with their own health care and others not having free health care. It's a simple grab for votes which yields power.

[panhandler62]

I guess no one knows what is being proposed since all we ever get are platitudes and links to England and Canada.

Don't like this: White House plan (http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/health_care/)? Fine, but let's discuss the actual plan instead of what britian has, OK?

[steross]

I guess no one knows what is being proposed since all we ever get are platitudes and links to England and Canada.

Don't like this: White House plan (http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/health_care/)? Fine, but let's discuss the actual plan instead of what britian has, OK?

I don't like this part:
Make employer contributions more fair by requiring large employers that do not offer coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of their employees' health care.

I believe we should be moving away from employer based plans not forcing more. It makes the system too difficult to navigate if you have intermittent employment, have pre-existing conditions, or are self employed.

[panhandler62]

I don't like this part:

I believe we should be moving away from employer based plans not forcing more. It makes the system too difficult to navigate if you have intermittent employment, have pre-existing conditions, or are self employed.

I would be happy moving away from employer based plans if direct compensation were adjusted to reflect this change. A substantial part of my current compensation is health care benefits.

[CocoCincinnati]

I personally don't like ANY government legislation that contains the words "make more fair by requiring".

[steross]

I would be happy moving away from employer based plans if direct compensation were adjusted to reflect this change. A substantial part of my current compensation is health care benefits.

I would not force companies to stop the benefits, just stop the incentive to do so. Whether an individual company continued benefits or not would have to be looked at just like any other pay raise/pay cut decision.

[NYC Poke]

I don't like this part:

I believe we should be moving away from employer based plans not forcing more. It makes the system too difficult to navigate if you have intermittent employment, have pre-existing conditions, or are self employed.

At some point we will have universal health care, and the decision will not be motivated by liberals. It will be motivated by US businesses who are unable to compete globally because of healthcare costs.

[panhandler62]

I would not force companies to stop the benefits, just stop the incentive to do so. Whether an individual company continued benefits or not would have to be looked at just like any other pay raise/pay cut decision.

I understand. I was reacting visceraly to what would constitute a substantial change in my compensation. Individualy purchased healthcare for my family would run me in the neighborhood of $800 a month and raise my deductible by at least 600%.

I currently pay a smidge over 200 a month for employer group coverage with a relatively low deductible. If I was just getting individual coverage I would go CAFE (which shouldn't vary as much between group and individual coverages and rates.)

I'm curious about incentives. What benefits do companies get for providing health care instead of direct compnsaion of a similar scale?

[naranjaynegro]

I believe we should be moving away from employer based plans not forcing more. It makes the system too difficult to navigate if you have intermittent employment, have pre-existing conditions, or are self employed.

Isn't that the logical first step in a health care make over? Make it portable, make it tax deductible.....these things will bring competition back into the picture which will serve to drive prices down.

I posted a story by Krauthammer about Obama's health care plan where they are going to basically do it like every other socialized plan in the world....determine who, if, or when someone needs some type of medical service. In a socialized plan this is the only way to manage costs. The people who can afford it will just go out and get a supplemental health plan (Private).

Why not start with something that would be easier to implement as a first step that might just solve all the issues? Oh no, big gubmint has to control it for it to work properly:rolleyes:

[steross]

I understand. I was reacting visceraly to what would constitute a substantial change in my compensation. Individualy purchased healthcare for my family would run me in the neighborhood of $800 a month and raise my deductible by at least 600%.

I currently pay a smidge over 200 a month for employer group coverage with a relatively low deductible. If I was just getting individual coverage I would go CAFE (which shouldn't vary as much between group and individual coverages and rates.)

I'm curious about incentives. What benefits do companies get for providing health care instead of direct compnsaion of a similar scale?

But you are comparing prices getting an individual plan in the current system. If individuals were able to choose their own plans the theory is that prices would come down because of the competition.

The benefit is that it is tax free income. In a month when I have to go buy individual insurance after I quit my job, I will be paying for it in after tax dollars instead of pretax dollars when the corporation does it. So for the employee it avoids income, SS, and Medicare tax. For the corporation, it is deductible as a business expense. It is a huge tax benefit.

[RxCowboy]

Government run health care means no health care.

Look, I'm not for nationalizing the healthcare system. But this is absolute bullspit. I worked for 10+ years in the VA system and my wife (a PA) works in the VA system now. There are some things that the VA does very well.

[RxCowboy]

At some point we will have universal health care, and the decision will not be motivated by liberals. It will be motivated by US businesses who are unable to compete globally because of healthcare costs.

We have universal healthcare now. Anyone who walks into an ER will be seen. You and I are already paying for it in higher healthcare costs to us (those who actually pay their bills), higher premiums, higher taxes. It is time for us to decide that some level of basic healthcare is, for lack of a better term, a right. We have medications and treatment strategies that we know prevent more expensive and devastating disease. It makes no sense of us to not increase access to them.

I don't agree with Obama on much, but I agree that we could at least theorhetically improve access and decrease costs at the same time. That said, I have zero confidence in the government decreasing the costs of anything.

[NYC Poke]

We have universal healthcare now. Anyone who walks into an ER will be seen. You and I are already paying for it in higher healthcare costs to us (those who actually pay their bills), higher premiums, higher taxes. It is time for us to decide that some level of basic healthcare is, for lack of a better term, a right. We have medications and treatment strategies that we know prevent more expensive and devastating disease. It makes no sense of us to not increase access to them.

I don't agree with Obama on much, but I agree that we could at least theorhetically improve access and decrease costs at the same time. That said, I have zero confidence in the government decreasing the costs of anything.


I am opposed to the government involved in something that private enterprise can do better. As it stands, I think our system of private insurance isn't working. We spend far more on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than do other industrialized countries, with arguably lesser results.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to a system of private insurace, but our current model provides perverse incentives, both to the insurers and the insured. The insured are incented to overconsume medical servies. They're paying for it, why not use all they can get? The insurers, whose bottom line tends to rely most heavily on their investing prowess, have an incentive to deny all the claims they can. Doctors have testified before Congress that they were hired by insurance companies to review claims, with bonuses based on the amount of claims denied. They testified further that they knew of case where people had died because they denied legitimate claims on specious grounds.

That's messed up. I won't pretend to know the solution, but it's clear we have a problem.

[Roman Craig]

I am opposed to the government involved in something that private enterprise can do better. As it stands, I think our system of private insurance isn't working. We spend far more on healthcare as a percentage of GDP than do other industrialized countries, with arguably lesser results.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to a system of private insurace, but our current model provides perverse incentives, both to the insurers and the insured. The insured are incented to overconsume medical servies. They're paying for it, why not use all they can get? The insurers, whose bottom line tends to rely most heavily on their investing prowess, have an incentive to deny all the claims they can. Doctors have testified before Congress that they were hired by insurance companies to review claims, with bonuses based on the amount of claims denied. They testified further that they knew of case where people had died because they denied legitimate claims on specious grounds.

That's messed up. I won't pretend to know the solution, but it's clear we have a problem.

That is because the government got involved.

The best way is to get the government out of it. Totally.

[NYC Poke]

That is because the government got involved.

The best way is to get the government out of it. Totally.

And what's your remedy if an insurance company denies your claim in bad faith? A breach of contract suit isn't going to do you much good when you're dead.

[Roman Craig]

And what's your remedy if an insurance company denies your claim in bad faith? A breach of contract suit isn't going to do you much good when you're dead.

Hopefully this would reduce costs enough that you wouldn't need insurance. Maybe just a health savings account. If you still need something, it will be a free market. Nobody will buy an insurance that doesn't cover anything. One will come along that does.

[NYC Poke]

Hopefully this would reduce costs enough that you wouldn't need insurance. Maybe just a health savings account. If you still need something, it will be a free market. Nobody will buy an insurance that doesn't cover anything. One will come along that does.

Okay. And what happens to you, RC, when you have a car accident and the medical bills not only wipe out your savings account, they amount to several times more than you make in a year, and you were not concious and therefore could not bargain at arms length with your care providers?

[Roman Craig]

Okay. And what happens to you, RC, when you have a car accident and the medical bills not only wipe out your savings account, they amount to several times more than you make in a year, and you were not concious and therefore could not bargain at arms length with your care providers?

Hiipcratic oath?

[NYC Poke]

Hiipcratic oath?

Heh.

When my brother was in his scumbag phase in his early 20s, he was drunk (and who knows what else) out of his mind and attempted to walk across Mockingbird Lane in Dallas against the light. He totalled the Volkswagon that ran into him.

It chopped of part of his eyeball, broke several ribs, messed up his knee and shoulder, and he had deep cuts all over his body. Several hospitals refused to admit him because he had no insurance and his injuries weren't considered life-threatening. It was only after my mom went down, borrowed against all of her 401k and pretty much signed over the house that they even sewed his eyeball shut. I hate to think what would have happened to him had my mom not been able to do that.