You be the DA:

[bigbadbob]

You are the DA of a medium sized Oklahoma County and you get this report from a Police Officer. What are the charges you file for each Defendant?

On 01.30.09 your Affiant executed a search warrant for the residence at X, City of X, County Of X, State of Oklahoma with assistance from Officer A, Officer B and Officer C. Defendant A and Defendant B were at the residence.

Your Affiant started searching the northeast bedroom and observed a partial cigar lying on the floor in the southeast corner of the bedroom. Your Affiant observed that there was a green leafy substance inside the partial cigar. Your Affiant tested the green leafy substance that was in the cigar in a Marihuana field test kit and the substance tested positive for Marihuana. Your Affiant observed a candle on the nightstand next to the bed and there were cigarette butts, ashes, seeds and stems with a green leafy substance inside the candle. Your Affiant tested the green leafy substance that was on the stem in a Marihuana field test kit and the substance tested positive for Marihuana. Your Affiant observed a silver Phoenix Arms .22 caliber handgun in a box on top of the dresser on the west wall of the bedroom. The Magazine was loaded with ammunition but there was no ammunition in the chamber. Officer A asked Defendant A and Defendant B who the handgun belonged to and Defendant A said the handgun belonged to her. The cigar butt containing the green leafy substance and the seeds and stems containing the green leafy substance were photographed and seized.

Officer D arrived and had his canine do a sniff inside the apartment and the canine alerted on the coffee table in the living room. Officer D and your Affiant noticed that the top of the coffee table rose up and there were compartments underneath the top. Your Affiant observed in the south compartment a clear plastic bag that contained burnt cigar butts and the cigar butts contained a green leafy substance. Your Affiant observed a set of black scales and inside the scales contained a green leafy substance. The south compartment also contained an Oklahoma identification card for Defendant B, a medical card for Defendant A, and earning statements for Defendant A and Defendant B. Your Affiant observed that in the north compartment of the coffee table there were cigar butts containing a green leafy substance and a loose green leafy substance. Your affiant observed a bill from OG&E in the north compartment to Defendant A at Address X Oklahoma. The bag containing cigar butts, the green leafy substance, and OG&E bill were photographed and seized.

Your Affiant started searching the kitchen and observed a green leafy substance and partial corners of clear plastic bags in a bag of trash. Your Affiant knows from training and experience that persons who sell Marihuana commonly place the Marihuana in a clear plastic bag and contain the Marihuana in the corner of the bag and remove the corner with the Marihuana for smaller packaging.

Your Affiant seized the silver handgun that was found in the northeast bedroom.

Your Affiant spoke to Woman A, apartment complex manager, and she said that Defendant A leases apartment X. Woman A told your Affiant that Defendant B also stays at the apartment and has stayed there for several months.

Based on this information, the undersigned prays that this Honorable Court issue a finding of fact that probable cause to believe that the Defendant above named committed that crime.

The green leafy substance was sent to OSBI and the rsults of that test show a weight of .36 grams for burnt cigar containing a green leafy substance and a weight of .05 grams of green leafy substance in a clear plastic bag. Both test positive for Cannabis.

[OSUCherokee]

No clear evidence of the intent to distribute. Only an insignificant amount of marijuana found. As long as the weapon was legal I would say 20 hours community service.

[bigbadbob]

No clear evidence of the intent to distribute. Only an insignificant amount of marijuana found. As long as the weapon was legal I would say 20 hours community service.

So what would your charge be (don't have to go look up the technical verbage, just what you would call it)?

[bigbadbob]

And BTW, the search warrant was issued because the apartment manager came over with a maintenance man to fix something and while Defendant A & B were out of the room, the took some of the green leafy substance and after fixing the problem, called the police when they got back to the office.

[jobob85]

If I am reading this right .41 grams total. I hope the DA isn't wasting much time on this one. Didn't hear if the weapon was registered or whether there are any priors. I'm with OSUCherokee cut a quick deal collect a fine and move on.

[OSTATE84te]

misd. possession of paraphenalia, misd. possession of controlled substance (marijuana)


Let me guess, the D.A. in said scenario is going for federal weapons charges.

[jobob85]

Misdemeanor possession. Assuming no priors. ?? Youthful offenders ?? Drug court.

[bigbadbob]

No priors for either one. Gun not registered (not against the law), but not stolen or used in another crime.

[bigbadbob]

And for those of you that aren't sure about weights, a full gram is about the weight of a sweet and low packet.

[OSTATE84te]

No priors for either one. Gun not registered (not against the law), but not stolen or used in another crime.

So the local Barney Fife station gets a new pop-gun for their display case.:rolleyes:

[bigbadbob]

So the local Barney Fife station gets a new pop-gun for their display case.:rolleyes:

HA! EPD has such a display case!

[jobob85]

EPD

Enid
Edmond
Erick
Eufaula

Am I getting warm?:)

At 28 grams to an oz. that is roughly 1/70 of an oz.

Hell I think the manager and maintenance guy planted it there to get them in trouble. ADA must like warts because this one has lots of them.

[bigbadbob]

Where ya at JD? And what about you bleedorange? Got nothing to say here?

[Slugger926]

So what would your charge be (don't have to go look up the technical verbage, just what you would call it)?

Hmmm.... The OSBI is guilty of possessing cannibis.

The woman should get her gun back. It is not illegal to have guns or have them loaded on your property. If it were in her car, it better be unloaded.

The woman is guilty of having cigars which do contain leafy substance.

No proof of the percentage of the leafy stuff that was cannibis or that the tests were tainted. Were the seeds tested, or were they for flowers (ect.)?

Could the leafy substance been grass, ect? How possible was the test equipment tainted due to previous exposures?

What are the defendants doing for society? Productive? Tax payers?

Was there an impartial witness to this search warrent? These guys are being paid/rewarded to arrest people. They would have to show justification for their time.

Not enough impartial evidence to waste taxpayers dollars on. If they were guilty of a minor infraction, they may be scared now. Surveillance of these two may pay much bigger dividends down the road with real criminals worth hanging.

[Slugger926]

So what would your charge be (don't have to go look up the technical verbage, just what you would call it)?

I will make you a change of life plea deal.

Your clients plus the officers on the warrent will meet at the track 6 days a week Tuesday through Saturday for 3 miles of running followed ith 60 - 60 yard dashes at 6 am. If the clients follow through, charges will be dropped. If the officers follow through, they get their bonus for this iffy catch.

If the officers miss a day, don't run hard enough (improving times, puking, ect) then they lose their bonus perk, and the clients are off. See you in court if the clients miss a day, don't run hard enough, ect...

The officers will be off donuts and saving the tax payers $$$ in health care costs after their 60 days. If any smoke, they won't be at the end. Same is true for the clients.

The officers should feel good for helping change a few lives as well as their own.

Tax payers win.

[Pokit N]

What is it about poking fun at cops that gives some of you erections?

[jobob85]

What is it about poking fun at cops that gives some of you erections?

Ten years of catholic school.:rolleyes:

[bigbadbob]

What is it about poking fun at cops that gives some of you erections?

Wait til you hear the punchline here - and then you will see why some are worthy of being poked.

[Pokit N]

Wait til you hear the punchline here - and then you will see why some are worthy of being poked.

Yeah, yeah, I just get annoyed. Seems like everyone has an axe to grind against cops. Generally they are just enforcing the laws that our politicians have set in place.

Nobody would ever say anything bad about a Teacher, Doctor, EMT, Firefighter, Soldier. But when it comes to cops, katy bar the freaking door. Whether it's a crack about donuts, bacon or barney fife everbody feels entitled to make a wise crack.

[bigbadbob]

Yeah, yeah, I just get annoyed. Seems like everyone has an axe to grind against LAWYERS. Generally they are just enforcing the laws that our politicians have set in place.

Nobody would ever say anything bad about a Teacher, Doctor, EMT, Firefighter, Soldier. But when it comes to LAWYERS, katy bar the freaking door. Whether it's a crack about lying, cheating, stealing, everbody feels entitled to make a wise crack.

Thought I might edit your comment a bit...

[Pokit N]

Thought I might edit your comment a bit...

Point Taken

[bigbadbob]

Point Taken


;-)

[OSTATE84te]

What is it about poking fun at cops that gives some of you erections? I guess the same thing that gives you a raging boner from defending them, personal experience.

[OSTATE84te]

Wait til you hear the punchline here - and then you will see why some are worthy of being poked. bump, bbb how long do we have to wait for this alleged punchline? :)

[inspoke]

Hate to be the apt. manager and maintenance guy since they are the ones who reported it. I would be angry if that was my apt. Of course, all the occupants of the apt had to do was put the stuff away. Possession with intent to distribute. Looking at jail time. Just a guess. Those damn marijuana smokers. We should shoot them all. :D

[bleedorange]

Where ya at JD? And what about you bleedorange? Got nothing to say here?

Sorry, had you on ignore and didn't see you. Lemme guess. It's a story baggin on "the man". Am I close? I'm pretty sure I am...you only have one story to tell.

[OSTATE84te]

Sorry, had you on ignore and didn't see you. Lemme guess. It's a story baggin on "the man". Am I close? I'm pretty sure I am...you only have one story to tell.

Can't tell who it's baggin on, he won't tell us the damn "punchline".;)

[Slugger926]

Can't tell who it's baggin on, he won't tell us the damn "punchline".;)

DITTO!!! Where is that puncline. I through out a very fair what would you do solution that would give the biggest bang to the taxpayers as long as they weren't distributors.

[bigbadbob]

Possession with Intent to Distribute (2 years to Life, up to 20,000 fine)
Possession of a Firearm Dueing the Commission of a Felony (2-10 years)

So now these people have had to bond out on a $10,000 and a $15,000 bond, respectively. They have both had to pay thousands in attorney fees and one has been fired from their job based upon the charge.

What the laypeople on this board can see (that it should be simple possession of MJ, pay a fine and go down the road), two police officers and an ADA cannot see. Now the case has been set for preliminary hearing (where you will be paying for 3 cops to testify, two civilians, a judge, a court reporter, a court clerk a bailiff and an ADA) where a judge may or may not dismiss the charge.

All for a basically unusable, but still testable amount of marijuana. This is an abuse of power, period.

Your tax dollars at work.

[Pokit N]

DITTO!!! Where is that puncline. I through out a very fair what would you do solution that would give the biggest bang to the taxpayers as long as they weren't distributors.

You thought it was fair to make the police officers run wind sprints to earn their paycheck?

[bigbadbob]

Sorry, had you on ignore and didn't see you. Lemme guess. It's a story baggin on "the man". Am I close? I'm pretty sure I am...you only have one story to tell.

Mmm hmmm. Can't challenge the facts here, so let's just ignore it. Nice. Moron.

[OSTATE84te]

WTF, Intent to distribute because of the cut sandwich baggies? I thought you had to have drugs actually in different vessels to have it considered intent, unless it it over a specified amount. Sheesh, couldn't they spend their time on a meth lab or something a little more dangerous?

[jobob85]

Nice - with intent to distrib. they can bring the weapon in. Amazing.

I assume the scales brought about the intent to distrib. charge?

[bleedorange]

Mmm hmmm. Can't challenge the facts here, so let's just ignore it. Nice. Moron.

Can't challenge the facts? Get a grip Matlock. I wasn't ignoring your story, I was ignoring you. You're a one-trick pony whose cop-hating whining is entirely too predictable. It's sad how you've let your past, enrage your future. Some cops abuse the sytem...we get it. I might say the same for defense attorneys who charge "thousands of dollars" for some cut-and-paste legalese. Asshat.:rolleyes:

[bigbadbob]

Nice - with intent to distrib. they can bring the weapon in. Amazing.

I assume the scales brought about the intent to distrib. charge?

Not necessarily...Intent to Distribute can be basd on any number of factors. What cops know, but mislead judges about, and what judges don't realize is that almost all consistent purchasers or user of drugs have digital scales. They sell them at the corner store for a couple of bucks. Drug dealers are not, by nature, honest people. It behooves you to weigh what you are purchasing. Some judges use this factor alone (which is bullshit) and some make there be more (several baggies, unexplained cash, amount of drugs, admission of intent by defendant (happens more often than you think), paperwork with amounts, etc...)

They have a couple of things here that show that someone in that house might have intended to sell something at some point, BUT here is the kicker, THEY DIDN"T HAVE ANYTHING IN THE HOUSE TO SELL WHEN THE COPS CAME! You can't intend to sell .05 grams. That ridiculous. Here, for a penny, I'll give you this residue. You can't intend to sell a blunt that has been smoked and weighs .3 grams, who would buy it?

Maybe if they came the night before they would have hit the motherlode, but they didn't.

[bigbadbob]

Can't challenge the facts? Get a grip Matlock. I wasn't ignoring your story, I was ignoring you. You're a one-trick pony whose cop-hating whining is entirely too predictable. It's sad how you've let your past, enrage your future. Some cops abuse the sytem...we get it. I might say the same for defense attorneys who charge "thousands of dollars" for some cut-and-paste legalese. Asshat.:rolleyes:

More ignoring from you. You can't defend the cops or ADA here because it is so clearly bogus, so attack the messenger. Typical and shows your true allegiances. You are probably one of these ridiculous cops who take advantage of the system.

[bleedorange]

More ignoring from you. You can't defend the cops or ADA here because it is so clearly bogus, so attack the messenger. Typical and shows your true allegiances. You are probably one of these ridiculous cops who take advantage of the system.

I'm not a cop, never been a cop, don't have any cops in the family. I have a couple casual friends that are, but none in my immediate circle who I might converse with regularly. I just tire of your incessant whining and broadbrush painting of a group that in all reality, is just as likely to be as conscientious and well-serving in their job as anyone else. You're not the messenger, you are the spam mail...and just as annoying.

[bigbadbob]

I'm not a cop, never been a cop, don't have any cops in the family. I have a couple casual friends that are, but none in my immediate circle who I might converse with regularly. I just tire of your incessant whining and broadbrush painting of a group that in all reality, is just as likely to be as conscientious and well-serving in their job as anyone else. You're not the messenger, you are the spam mail...and just as annoying.

More not addressing the topic of this post. That's the very definition of spam. Or hijacking a thread.

Just admit that what has happened here is wrong. And its not an isolated incident. When I have more time I will give more examples. These people got royally screwed. And it was easily fixable. But Oklahoma's broken criminal justice system allows this to happen everyday. You are probably right, the group (as a percentage) I am talking about is as likely to be as conscientious and well meaning as anyone else (Read: a few bad apples). The difference is that 99% of other professions cannot lock you up and take away your freedom. 99% of other professions cannot cause you to spend thousands of dollars to protect yourself and to get a case dismissed or reduced. Because of the disproportianate power they wield, they should be held to a disproportianately higher standard.

[bleedorange]

You are probably right, the group (as a percentage) I am talking about is as likely to be as conscientious and well meaning as anyone else (Read: a few bad apples). The difference is that 99% of other professions cannot lock you up and take away your freedom. 99% of other professions cannot cause you to spend thousands of dollars to protect yourself and to get a case dismissed or reduced. Because of the disproportianate power they wield, they should be held to a disproportianately higher standard.

A bad doctor can kill you.
A bad engineer can kill you.
A bad lawyer can break you AND send you to jail.

Should we expect your crusade to expand to these areas or are you going to continue with the obsession with the cops?

[bigbadbob]

A bad doctor can kill you.
A bad engineer can kill you.
A bad lawyer can break you AND send you to jail.

Should we expect your crusade to expand to these areas or are you going to continue with the obsession with the cops?

You get to choose your doctor

You usually get to choose your lawyer, unless you are too poor.

You probably can't choose the engineer that designed the thing that hurt you, BUT YOU CAN SUE THEM ALL and have a much better shot than you do suing a DA, Judge or Cop. They have special protection called immunity from such suits in most cases. The procedural hurdles, burdens of proof and difficulty of cases make it unrealsitic to expect there are any real repurcussions that will develop based on their poor choices. As in the case here, the best that the defendants can hope for is a reduction in charge by the judge. They are still out their freedom, their money and their job. Can they sue for these things? Nope. A complaint to their supervisors? Puh-leaze!

[bigbadbob]

A bad doctor can kill you.
A bad engineer can kill you.
A bad lawyer can break you AND send you to jail.

Should we expect your crusade to expand to these areas or are you going to continue with the obsession with the cops?

And, BTW, at least with doctors and lawyers, they are held to a little bit of a higher standard, and that is being overseen by a licensing organization. Not saying that they are as effective or work the way they should, but there is something. Cops have no such oversight (and don't say internal affairs, most departments don't have such a thing, and only in the biggest departments do they really work in teh manner they should. Most small department IA groups are rubber stamps for the chief and his own investigation or lack thereof).

[CocoCincinnati]

Possession with Intent to Distribute (2 years to Life, up to 20,000 fine)
Possession of a Firearm Dueing the Commission of a Felony (2-10 years)

So now these people have had to bond out on a $10,000 and a $15,000 bond, respectively. They have both had to pay thousands in attorney fees and one has been fired from their job based upon the charge.

What the laypeople on this board can see (that it should be simple possession of MJ, pay a fine and go down the road), two police officers and an ADA cannot see. Now the case has been set for preliminary hearing (where you will be paying for 3 cops to testify, two civilians, a judge, a court reporter, a court clerk a bailiff and an ADA) where a judge may or may not dismiss the charge.

All for a basically unusable, but still testable amount of marijuana. This is an abuse of power, period.

Your tax dollars at work.

I have zero problems with this. Pot is ILLEGAL, don't freaking have it at your apartment if you're not prepared to face the consequences.

[jakeman]

Bob, why in hell don't you quit yer bitchin about it, and go to work for the DA's office and make a real difference in the system? Maybe run for DA in the next election.

This is something you could do to really help. Surely you aren't in the biz for the money. By all appearances you are in it for the crusade to right social & legal injustices. You probably make plenty of money off clients that are innocent victims of LE and Judicial abuses of power. So, in a perfect world, if the abuses of power and trumped up charges (in your opinion) went away, wouldn't your income drop at least some as well?

Go ahead and take the money hit now, and go make a difference. In the end it will all work out to be a wash. Innocent people won't worry about going to jail, the abuses of power will decline, and so will your income with you running the DA's office. Sounds like from reading alot of your posts that would make you happy. Might not make a difference in the nation or even the state, but wouldn't Garfield County be a nicer place.

[Slugger926]

You thought it was fair to make the police officers run wind sprints to earn their paycheck?

They get their paycheck no matter what, and should be in shape to chase down bad guys. It is part of their job to stay in top notch shape for their own safety, service to the public, and reduction of healthcare costs to the public. They should love to run and stay in shape, so getting out there to improve the public should be their top priority. It shouldn't be lets give out X number of tickets as soon as possible in the morning so I can go home and watch TV on the couch in the heat of the day.

If those officers believe in what they were doing or had the proper evidense, their intrinsic motivation will be to get out ther every morning for 60 days along with those they accused giving the accused a hard time for running slow and being a drag on society, and encouraging the accused to improve themselves. Yes, the perks will be earned by the officers at the end of the 60 days with them feeling good about better health and a job well done with the bonus in their pocket. The accused will be better off too.

How to fund the perks for the officers you may ask? Well, putting someone in jail costs $100K per year plus removing a taxpayer from society. Why not give that officer a percentage commission on the tax savings over a gradual period over what the accused would have spent in jail. So give the team a 10% bonus of $300K (3 years worth of jail) split between the team and paid out over a 3 year period with 10% at end of the first year ($3K), 40 % at the end of year two ($12K), and 60% at the end of year three ($18K) as long as the accused stays clean as well during that period. So, now we are looking at rewarding work and changing lives with prevenative costs on society rather than as a tax system of producing as many fines as possible (speeding ticket quotas and so forth).

[Slugger926]

Not necessarily...Intent to Distribute can be basd on any number of factors. What cops know, but mislead judges about, and what judges don't realize is that almost all consistent purchasers or user of drugs have digital scales. They sell them at the corner store for a couple of bucks. Drug dealers are not, by nature, honest people. It behooves you to weigh what you are purchasing. Some judges use this factor alone (which is bullshit) and some make there be more (several baggies, unexplained cash, amount of drugs, admission of intent by defendant (happens more often than you think), paperwork with amounts, etc...)

They have a couple of things here that show that someone in that house might have intended to sell something at some point, BUT here is the kicker, THEY DIDN"T HAVE ANYTHING IN THE HOUSE TO SELL WHEN THE COPS CAME! You can't intend to sell .05 grams. That ridiculous. Here, for a penny, I'll give you this residue. You can't intend to sell a blunt that has been smoked and weighs .3 grams, who would buy it?

Maybe if they came the night before they would have hit the motherlode, but they didn't.

Here is some ammo for you: Puffery and Distraction of the topic is Unethical Techniques per Table 13-3, Page 391, Organizational Behavior 8th Edition, Kreitner and Kinicki.

The attorney that is using "Puffery" is being unethical and should be disbarred unless ethics in the legal profession are 180 degrees different than any other business. There are a whole list of other unethical practices listed on the referenced book.

As you pointed out, these unethical practices are costing society more than we are gaining. If you see something unethical or dumb, it is usually because people in the organization are being rewarded for such actions no matter the business or organization.

[Pokit N]

They get their paycheck no matter what, and should be in shape to chase down bad guys. It is part of their job to stay in top notch shape for their own safety, service to the public, and reduction of healthcare costs to the public. They should love to run and stay in shape, so getting out there to improve the public should be their top priority. It shouldn't be lets give out X number of tickets as soon as possible in the morning so I can go home and watch TV on the couch in the heat of the day.

If those officers believe in what they were doing or had the proper evidense, their intrinsic motivation will be to get out ther every morning for 60 days along with those they accused giving the accused a hard time for running slow and being a drag on society, and encouraging the accused to improve themselves. Yes, the perks will be earned by the officers at the end of the 60 days with them feeling good about better health and a job well done with the bonus in their pocket. The accused will be better off too.

How to fund the perks for the officers you may ask? Well, putting someone in jail costs $100K per year plus removing a taxpayer from society. Why not give that officer a percentage commission on the tax savings over a gradual period over what the accused would have spent in jail. So give the team a 10% bonus of $300K (3 years worth of jail) split between the team and paid out over a 3 year period with 10% at end of the first year ($3K), 40 % at the end of year two ($12K), and 60% at the end of year three ($18K) as long as the accused stays clean as well during that period. So, now we are looking at rewarding work and changing lives with prevenative costs on society rather than as a tax system of producing as many fines as possible (speeding ticket quotas and so forth).

I guess I misunderstood your initial post. I'll bet you could get many cops in great shape if they were really offered the terms you suggested.

[Slugger926]

I guess I misunderstood your initial post. I'll bet you could get many cops in great shape if they were really offered the terms you suggested.

The private corporations that own prisons and funnel $$$ into politicians pockets that create laws would hate it.

[FWPoke]

I have zero problems with this. Pot is ILLEGAL, don't freaking have it at your apartment if you're not prepared to face the consequences.

What he said.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for a couple of druggies who may or may not be dealers as well. In the immortal words of Jim Carrey in "Liar, Liar" - "Stop breaking the law, a@@hole!"

[Slugger926]

What he said.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for a couple of druggies who may or may not be dealers as well. In the immortal words of Jim Carrey in "Liar, Liar" - "Stop breaking the law, a@@hole!"

I used to be that way, but someone that is borderline that isn't harming anyone else? What if everyone paid taxes on exactly how they felt? Would you triple your tax bill to pay for 3 years of jail for this couple while I get my tax bill reduced?:D

[CocoCincinnati]

I used to be that way, but someone that is borderline that isn't harming anyone else? What if everyone paid taxes on exactly how they felt? Would you triple your tax bill to pay for 3 years of jail for this couple while I get my tax bill reduced?:D

Hey, incarcerating criminals is one of the few things I don't mind my tax dollars going towards. Still, I'm not about to give you a pass on it. :)

[Slugger926]

Hey, incarcerating criminals is one of the few things I don't mind my tax dollars going towards. Still, I'm not about to give you a pass on it. :)

Do you mind paying my portion of the tax bill for incarcerating minor criminals and drug adicts?

[CowboyJD]

I love that I deliberately didn't get involved in this thread, and bbb STILL went ugly simply because people disagree with him.

[CowboyJD]

Respond if you want bbb, but make sure somebody quotes it....otherwise, there's no chance I'll see it.

[CocoCincinnati]

Do you mind paying my portion of the tax bill for incarcerating minor criminals and drug adicts?

I'll pay your portion of this part of the tax bill, if you pick up my part of the tax bill for something I don't approve of.

[NYC Poke]

Respond if you want bbb, but make sure somebody quotes it....otherwise, there's no chance I'll see it.

If for some reason the 2 of you ever end up on opposite sides in a courtroom, please please please let me know. It would be worth the price of the plane ticket.

[Donnyboy]

If for some reason the 2 of you ever end up on opposite sides in a courtroom, please please please let me know. It would be worth the price of the plane ticket.

Yes we could tailgate in the parking lot and just get housed.....we'd be covered both ways. We'd have JD on the inside but if things broke bad BBB could create some elaborate 4th amendment scheme or something.

[bigbadbob]

What he said.

I have a hard time feeling sorry for a couple of druggies who may or may not be dealers as well. In the immortal words of Jim Carrey in "Liar, Liar" - "Stop breaking the law, a@@hole!"

For you two...you would seriously support 80K+ a year of taxpayer money to incarcerate these two people for years based on a trumped up charge. Ha! multiply that by literally thousands that are charged with misdemeanor possession of MJ and your society would go broke in a day off of residue amounts of marijuana. Thats just silly.

You've undoubtedly broken the law many times. Does that make you an asshole? Speeding, failure to yield, etc...Are traffic tickets all that much different than possession of MJ? At least 3 states, and more to come, treat simple possession the same as a speeding ticket. One even has a lesser fine than 0-10 speeding.

[bigbadbob]

Respond if you want bbb, but make sure somebody quotes it....otherwise, there's no chance I'll see it.

Ohh...my feelings are hurt. You can't defend this action either. Got real world proof of a broken system, right here in your own state, and you got nothing.

[Slugger926]

For you two...you would seriously support 80K+ a year of taxpayer money to incarcerate these two people for years based on a trumped up charge. Ha! multiply that by literally thousands that are charged with misdemeanor possession of MJ and your society would go broke in a day off of residue amounts of marijuana. Thats just silly.

You've undoubtedly broken the law many times. Does that make you an asshole? Speeding, failure to yield, etc...Are traffic tickets all that much different than possession of MJ? At least 3 states, and more to come, treat simple possession the same as a speeding ticket. One even has a lesser fine than 0-10 speeding.

These are much worse, and endangering the public directly including my kids. These repeating offenders should be put in jail first. You should see the adults speeding in and out of my own cul-de-sac endangering numerous kids.

[NYC Poke]

Yes we could tailgate in the parking lot and just get housed.....we'd be covered both ways. We'd have JD on the inside but if things broke bad BBB could create some elaborate 4th amendment scheme or something.


Maybe BBB would let us use his spiffy new tailgating trailer?

[CocoCincinnati]

For you two...you would seriously support 80K+ a year of taxpayer money to incarcerate these two people for years based on a trumped up charge. Ha! multiply that by literally thousands that are charged with misdemeanor possession of MJ and your society would go broke in a day off of residue amounts of marijuana. Thats just silly.

You've undoubtedly broken the law many times. Does that make you an asshole? Speeding, failure to yield, etc...Are traffic tickets all that much different than possession of MJ? At least 3 states, and more to come, treat simple possession the same as a speeding ticket. One even has a lesser fine than 0-10 speeding.

Everytime I've got caught breaking the law I have paid the pentaly for it so no I have absolutely no problem with these people doing the same. They will get a trial and if the charges are as trumped up as you say then they will not be convicted. It sounds like you are more mad at the law itself than at it being enforced capriciously. And if other states are changing their laws then fine, either let these people move to that state or you and they can lobby to have the law changed here.

How much tax money is spent on this has no bearing on the fact that these people BROKE THE FREAKING LAW and were apparently stupid enough to leave the evidence laying all over their apartment after the fact. I'll say it again. I have zero sympathy for these people and no problem with spending tax money to prosecute/incarcerate them.

[Donnyboy]

Maybe BBB would let us use his spiffy new tailgating trailer?

It would make a great bong!!!:D

[bigbadbob]

Everytime I've got caught breaking the law I have paid the pentaly for it

Actually you didn't do the max if it was a speeding charge. You could have done 10 days in jail for going 1-10 over the speed limit, so you didn't pay the max penalty. What if they did give you 10 days in jail for a speeding ticket (first offense) would that seem fair to you?



It sounds like you are more mad at the law itself than at it being enforced capriciously.



Thats exactly backward. I am mad that a police officer recommeded, a ADA filed and a judge initally approved this particular charge. If they would have charged him with simple possession, then fine.




They will get a trial and if the charges are as trumped up as you say then they will not be convicted



That's not the point. This isn't even a close case of maybe yes, maybe no. There can be no intent to distribute residue! Name me someone that is going to buy it? Who is going to sell it?

It is a broken system that forces these people to spend thousands of dollars to correct a problem that shouldn't have happened in the first place. And for them to have no recourse to recoup those losses is criminal itself. Our system supposes a fair officer, a fair ADA and a fair Judge. It rarely plays out that way. Either one is too busy. They don't have all the information. They have been misled.

[bigbadbob]

I don't know where the post telling me to go work for the DA or run for DA went but lets talk about it:

I would never get hired or elected. DA's aren't in the business of being fair, they are in the business of being "tough on crime." If they can be fair, but it not come to bite them in the butt later, most will be. If it is a public case or kind of cases (i.e. DUI's) they have to take a hard line or not get re-elected. A bipartisan commission has said for years our sentencing structure and rate of incarceration is out of control. Has anyone changed it? Nope. Fear of getting beat in an election. We paid millions for a consultant to review our criminal justice system in which they recommended a complete overhaul of our system-no moves yet, a year later. Fear of getting beat in an election.

[FWPoke]

Actually you didn't do the max if it was a speeding charge. You could have done 10 days in jail for going 1-10 over the speed limit, so you didn't pay the max penalty. What if they did give you 10 days in jail for a speeding ticket (first offense) would that seem fair to you?


Have these people already been sentenced to the maximum 20 years? Did I just miss that part?

[NYC Poke]

Bob, I agree that the trumped up charges are ridiculous. But in reality, isn't what's gonig to happen eventually is that they'll plead to misdemeanor possession and the gun charge will be dropped? Heck, I knew a guy in Tulsa who got caught with a quarter-pound and a loaded gun in his trunk, and that's basically what happened to him.

[zachya]

If these charges are as trumped up as you make them seem, shouldn't a competent defense attorney be able to handle this?

[bigbadbob]

Bob, I agree that the trumped up charges are ridiculous. But in reality, isn't what's gonig to happen eventually is that they'll plead to misdemeanor possession and the gun charge will be dropped? Heck, I knew a guy in Tulsa who got caught with a quarter-pound and a loaded gun in his trunk, and that's basically what happened to him.

Not what is happening as of yet. We are set for Preliminary Hearing because the ADA that filed the charges won't budge. Maybe at Prelim. If not, we'll see if the judge will reduce on his own. He has done it for me a couple of times on similar facts.

As for Tulsa and rural Oklahoma-two very different areas. There you have overworked ADA's and Judges who will get pissed at them if this kind of crap really goes to prelim. Here, we got all the time in the world for Prelims.

[bigbadbob]

Have these people already been sentenced to the maximum 20 years? Did I just miss that part?

No, but you said you would have no sympathy for them if they did. If they can do the crime, then they can do the time was the general gist of your argument.

Speeding carries up to 10 days. If an overzealous DA wanted you to do 10 days would you think that was fair?

[NYC Poke]

Not what is happening as of yet. We are set for Preliminary Hearing because the ADA that filed the charges won't budge. Maybe at Prelim. If not, we'll see if the judge will reduce on his own. He has done it for me a couple of times on similar facts.

As for Tulsa and rural Oklahoma-two very different areas. There you have overworked ADA's and Judges who will get pissed at them if this kind of crap really goes to prelim. Here, we got all the time in the world for Prelims.


Yeah, I meant to acknowledge the Tulsa/rural distinction in my original post.

eta: Bury him in paper. Also, look on the bright side -- don't you charge a higher fee for handling felony cases?

[bigbadbob]

If these charges are as trumped up as you make them seem, shouldn't a competent defense attorney be able to handle this?

We'll see. But that assumes a fair system, which I don't necessarily think we have in Oklahoma.

There are a few judges in OK county that will just assume put your guy in jail thank listen to your argument. In fact, recently after jury trial, the Defendant was found guilty and the jury recommended 1 day (!) in jail The guy had sat there for 6 months awaiting trial and the judge made him stay another day and not give him credit for time served. Jsut because the judge is predisposed against those charged with crimes.

[bigbadbob]

eta: don't you charge a higher fee for handling felony cases?


Yes, thats what the guy I office share with says too. It makes me feel a little weird when I charge more for something that should have cost $600 as a misdemeanor. In cases like this, I usually give a pretty heavy discount, but still charge more than a misdemeanor because I have to do a lot more work.

[bigbadbob]

No, but you said you would have no sympathy for them if they did. If they can do the crime, then they can do the time was the general gist of your argument.

Speeding carries up to 10 days. If an overzealous DA wanted you to do 10 days would you think that was fair?

Or better yet, and more similar to this case, what if you were doing 1 over and they charged you with reckless driving and wanted you to do 30 days and pay $544?

[NYC Poke]

Yes, thats what the guy I office share with says too. It makes me feel a little weird when I charge more for something that should have cost $600 as a misdemeanor. In cases like this, I usually give a pretty heavy discount, but still charge more than a misdemeanor because I have to do a lot more work.

And when you eventually get all this reduced to where he just gets a fine and has to take pee tests, he'll go around to all his friends telling them what a genius you are.

I was at lunch one day for a partner for KPMG, and he was going off on how the SEC was out of control, how nuts Sarbanes-Oxley is, etc. I said, "Save that for your clients, Ray. That's the stuff that keeps us employed." Personally, I favor full, but fair, enforcement of our nation's securities laws. :D

[CocoCincinnati]

Or better yet, and more similar to this case, what if you were doing 1 over and they charged you with reckless driving and wanted you to do 30 days and pay $544?

You would obviously know more about this than I would, but is that even possible? In this case, it seems that the combination of baggies, scales and the gun at least leave it legally possible for the increased charge. I don't like the gun being included, but to me the scales are the real key. I just don't buy the "I have to double check my crooked ass drug dealer" argument.

[FWPoke]

So, your argument is that drugs are no different than going 1 mile over the speed limit? I'm not going to say that is a stupid comparison, but feel free to infer whatever you want.

[NYC Poke]

So, your argument is that drugs are no different than going 1 mile over the speed limit? I'm not going to say that is a stupid comparison, but feel free to infer whatever you want.

I don't think that's what he was saying.


And there is nothing illegal, per se, about owning scales or having baggies, they are mererly evidence upon which an intent to distributed may be inferred. Had this been a quarter-pound, the charge would be justified. But those along with residue just don't add up to possession with intent to distribute.

[OSUCherokee]

So, your argument is that drugs are no different than going 1 mile over the speed limit? I'm not going to say that is a stupid comparison, but feel free to infer whatever you want.

What about one point over the legal BAC level? What about one dollar stolen out of a cash register? Breaking the law is breaking the law. However, the punishment is where there is some flexibility in the law.

[steross]

We have the highest incarceration rates in the world.

We are used to being number one. How else are we going to stay on top without prosecuting the most menial little crimes? Russia is trying to catch us with South Africa a distant third. We've got to beat the Ruskies!

[CowboyJD]

If for some reason the 2 of you ever end up on opposite sides in a courtroom, please please please let me know. It would be worth the price of the plane ticket.

:D

We've been on opposite sides, but we actually agreed....and it wasn't on anything serious.

We'll let you know though.

[bigbadbob]

I don't think that's what he was saying.


And there is nothing illegal, per se, about owning scales or having baggies, they are mererly evidence upon which an intent to distributed may be inferred. Had this been a quarter-pound, the charge would be justified. But those along with residue just don't add up to possession with intent to distribute.

Ding Ding Ding.

[Slugger926]

I guess I misunderstood your initial post. I'll bet you could get many cops in great shape if they were really offered the terms you suggested.

There is more method to the madness. The extremely high salary from the bonus program, and keeping the force in better shape than their boot camp/police school will mean the career may only be 10 to 15 years max. Your peers will force you out of the ranks when they are no longer getting their bonus when you fail to perform the rigors of the program. This will also mean a younger healthier force that is less injury prone that will reduce the health care costs on the public, and no public funded retirement program since the force should be making enough to invest for their own retirement and education for their years after police work.

Play hard and work hard to make a positive impact on society. It would also make much better news than tearing down society such as this news story out of Toledo: http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/05/18/nr.teen.police.beating.tape.cnn What kind of reward system is in place at that department that would make those guys do that?

[bigbadbob]

You would obviously know more about this than I would, but is that even possible? In this case, it seems that the combination of baggies, scales and the gun at least leave it legally possible for the increased charge. I don't like the gun being included, but to me the scales are the real key. I just don't buy the "I have to double check my crooked ass drug dealer" argument.

Easy, speeding + weaving can equal reckless driving. All he has to do is saying you were weaving and although certainly trumped up, still a sort of possible, but no less ridiculous charge.

The baggies scales and guns only matter if there is a sellable amount of drugs present. You can't charge someone with intent to distribute something (we don't know what) sometime (we don't know when) because we maybe think they did it in the past. Not to mention, there were two defendants in the house. How do we know which one of them intended or actually did anything?

[State]

Not necessarily...Intent to Distribute can be basd on any number of factors. What cops know, but mislead judges about, and what judges don't realize is that almost all consistent purchasers or user of drugs have digital scales. They sell them at the corner store for a couple of bucks. Drug dealers are not, by nature, honest people. It behooves you to weigh what you are purchasing. Some judges use this factor alone (which is bullshit) and some make there be more (several baggies, unexplained cash, amount of drugs, admission of intent by defendant (happens more often than you think), paperwork with amounts, etc...)

They have a couple of things here that show that someone in that house might have intended to sell something at some point, BUT here is the kicker, THEY DIDN"T HAVE ANYTHING IN THE HOUSE TO SELL WHEN THE COPS CAME! You can't intend to sell .05 grams. That ridiculous. Here, for a penny, I'll give you this residue. You can't intend to sell a blunt that has been smoked and weighs .3 grams, who would buy it?

Maybe if they came the night before they would have hit the motherlode, but they didn't.

So it sounds like they have a reasonable defense and it'll be dismissed or they'll win. How do you lay this on the cops? Seems like they just reported what they found. The DA office is the one making the big leap right?

[bigbadbob]

So it sounds like they have a reasonable defense and it'll be dismissed or they'll win. How do you lay this on the cops? Seems like they just reported what they found. The DA office is the one making the big leap right?

Yes, they have a reasonable defense, but have to go through everything that they will be unneccesarily and you never know what will happen. There are still risks. As for the charges, they were arrested on possession with intent to distribute and the gun. Now, the ADA doesn't have to stick with those charges if they don't want, but they usually do, whether they don't really read the affidavit or just don't want to piss off the arresting cops (and don't tell me they wouldn't care, I have heard cops really go after an ADA that won't file charges or won't fire charges that they want. It doesn't hurt that the DA and the Police Chief are married either.

[Slugger926]

Yes, they have a reasonable defense, but have to go through everything that they will be unneccesarily and you never know what will happen. There are still risks. As for the charges, they were arrested on possession with intent to distribute and the gun. Now, the ADA doesn't have to stick with those charges if they don't want, but they usually do, whether they don't really read the affidavit or just don't want to piss off the arresting cops (and don't tell me they wouldn't care, I have heard cops really go after an ADA that won't file charges or won't fire charges that they want. It doesn't hurt that the DA and the Police Chief are married either.

What kind of reward structure do the police have where they would care that their extreme version of the truth results in the most extreme charges?

Up in Minnesota, it would be just the opposite as in what happened with my MIL and hr BF a few years ago. (Thankfully my wife escaped down here for college before things went south in her family.) BF was growing MJ in between the rows of corn on his farm, as well as running a meth lab. They were busted with 100 trash bags of pot, 41 grams of coke, the meth lab, and $1M cash. I could have cared less if they would have hung. MIL got 9 days, and no more probation from her 6 DUI's thanks to spending the time in jail. BF got 9 months, and got out every day to go to work 1 hour away in a Coleman's plant, and got out every weekend. His 9 months was more like a hotel stay Monday through Friday. He did lose the farm to pay the lawyers.

There has got to be some middle ground that is ethical between unethical puffery that costs tax payers and whatever they do up in Minnesota. If it wasn't such a bad thing to do, it would pay with little risk to become a big time dealer up in Minnesota.:eek:

[CocoCincinnati]

The baggies scales and guns only matter if there is a sellable amount of drugs present. You can't charge someone with intent to distribute something (we don't know what) sometime (we don't know when) because we maybe think they did it in the past. Not to mention, there were two defendants in the house. How do we know which one of them intended or actually did anything?

Well I know very little about drugs and very little about drug laws so I'll defer on this one, maybe the charges are too much. However I will add that if these people were my friends/clients I would tell them two things. First, if you are using so much pot that you have to have scales to make sure you aren't getting ripped off, then you may have a problem. And two, after you have smoked yourself a big old pot cigar, don't leave the evidence laying around for the maintenance guy to find.

As for the tax dollars, it's hard for me to get any madder than I already am. I alrady feel my tax dollars are being wasted on things they shouldn't be, if it wasn't this, it would be something else.

[bigbadbob]

First, if you are using so much pot that you have to have scales to make sure you aren't getting ripped off, then you may have a problem.

Since the scales cost a couple of bucks, its not that big of a deal to measure small amounts. Maybe 10 yers ago only dealers have sclaes, but if I am paying 30 bucks for a bag of weed, I want to make sure it isn't 20 bucks worth, right? Would you allow a grocery store clerk to guess how much those apples weigh?



And two, after you have smoked yourself a big old pot cigar, don't leave the evidence laying around for the maintenance guy to find.



Since you admittedly don't know a lot about the drug culture, you are probably picturing a huge, fat cigar. While I suppose that it could happen. It is much more likely they are like swisher sweets (small cigars, more like big cigarretes) and they are usually passing them around or smoking them at different times.

[Slugger926]

As for the tax dollars, it's hard for me to get any madder than I already am. I alrady feel my tax dollars are being wasted on things they shouldn't be, if it wasn't this, it would be something else.

I am right there with you.:mad:

[bigbadbob]

ADA saw the light and agreed to reduce to misdemeanor possession and dismiss the firearms charge right before beginning the prelim.

[NYC Poke]

ADA saw the light and agreed to reduce to misdemeanor possession and dismiss the firearms charge right before beginning the prelim.

Sweet. Nicely done, bbb. Now plead 'em out and move on.

[OSTATE84te]

Sometimes I think ADA's, DA's do use this ploy as a scare tactic to try and land bigger fish. The good defense atty sees right through it.;)

[Slugger926]

Sometimes I think ADA's, DA's do use this ploy as a scare tactic to try and land bigger fish. The good defense atty sees right through it.;)

It is still unethical tactics no matter the industry.