If Football Is Cancelled

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Aug 22, 2006
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I wear a mask, i work every day, I could definitely quit my job if I thought it was too much of a risk. But I try to keep life as close to normal as I can. You can interpret what Franklin said however you wish but you don't know he meant in every case but this one. You have said that college aged adults can't make decisions on their own a couple of times already, who exactly should be making decisions for them and on what basis. I don't want people making decisions for me especially when its based on emotions.

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Jul 9, 2011
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The study was on middle aged couch potatoes, not young athletes. We live with deemed "acceptable risks" every day. Media focus can distort our risk concerns: people drive to Florida beaches and worrying about shark attacks when the higher risk activity was the drive to Florida.

Traditional flu can take a toll on the heart and lungs and having lasting effects on the elderly. Traditional flu kills on average 40 to 50,000 people each year, even with the "vaccines" which even the CDC admits have a limited effect. In fact, in the 2017-18 season flu deaths spiked to about 61,000 people. And traditional flu tends to be more deadly for healthy children under 14 than COVID based on hard data to date for COVID. Healthy children under 14 tend to not contract COVID, tend to be asymptomatic, and as a result do not contribute much to community spread of COVID. Ironic that schools have been left open during the normal flu season for years with little or no concern and little or no special preventative actions, but people want to close schools due to COVID. The data actually says just the opposite.

No one wants to be viewed as being insensitive to COVID risks - what will be said if the low probability result occurs and one elementary student or college athlete dies? Decisions are being made based on and in fear of media reports and not on available data from reliable sources such as the Journal of Science and the Mayo Clinic.
 
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OrangeFan69

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It's not up to you, and thank goodness for that. I know that everyone wants to have football but to me this is a much bigger issue. People making decisions based on emotions, decisions that directly impose on the freedom we have grown up with, is a huge problem for me. Ben Franklin said those who give up liberty for security deserve neither. And I fully agree with him. So you see it as a simple football issue and I see it as a change in the way I live my life. With or without football my life will go on just fine but without freedom to make my own decisions it won't. That's why I push back on all of you that are fully right in your concerns but wrong in the complacency of allowing someone else to dictate what you can and can't do.

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Agree to disagree for now, let me know how you feel when you have some people in your circle get affected by it. I suspect your opinion will evolve, and that's cool too man.
 

RxCowboy

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But isn't that the whole problem? This IS a new disease, so the people making the decision to cancel the season aren't informed either. Nobody is really informed about this. If somebody wants to argue that that is the exact reason the season should be cancelled, then fine. But it seems wrong to say these legal adults can't play because they are not informed while claiming the people telling them they can't play are.

I'm just playing devils advocate, I personally don't expect the season to happen and my life will go on.
Play this though exercise with me.

Scenario A: "We're in a really dangerous situation, a pandemic, and we don't know what the long-term health effects are, but we're going to forge ahead anyway because it's going to be a really long time before we know everything."

Scenario B: "We're in a really dangerous situation, a pandemic, and we don't know what the long-term health effects are, but we're going to wait until we know more and can make an informed decision."

If it's the health of your kid, which one do you want?

Ask yourself, if this half-assed, "don't tell me what to do, you decide for you and I'll decide for me and I'll wear a mask if I want to and obesity is contagious and kills people" was working, would we be even talking about canceling college football season? No, you don't have to answer, we all know what the obvious answer is. The amazing thing is that so many people can't change their thinking even in the face of such obvious failure.
 

RxCowboy

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Franklin and security:
https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century#:~:text=Benjamin%20Franklin%20once%20said%3A%20%22Those,and%20concerns%20about%20government%20surveillance
.

SIEGEL: What's the exact quotation?​
WITTES: The exact quotation, which is from a letter that Franklin is believed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania General Assembly, reads, those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.​
SIEGEL: And what was the context of this remark?​
WITTES: He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.​
SIEGEL: So far from being a pro-privacy quotation, if anything, it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.​
WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.​

To use it in the context of public health is butchery.
 

RxCowboy

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I wear a mask, i work every day, I could definitely quit my job if I thought it was too much of a risk. But I try to keep life as close to normal as I can. You can interpret what Franklin said however you wish but you don't know he meant in every case but this one. You have said that college aged adults can't make decisions on their own a couple of times already, who exactly should be making decisions for them and on what basis. I don't want people making decisions for me especially when its based on emotions.

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No, I said this decision is one that should be made by university presidents and conference commissioners, and not the players and especially not the idiot football coaches. The university presidents need to be listening to the experts they employ on the matter. And if they allow themselves to put money ahead of the health and safety of the players, the "Ford Pinto" strategy, shame on them.

You are the one playing on emotions. You are so overly emotional you are blind to it. That's why you keep trying to make it about you, "don't tell me what to do". This has nothing to do with you. You're just a fan. This is nothing but entertainment to you.
 
Aug 22, 2006
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If only 0.03% of Ford pintos blew up when rear ended they would have been considered good cars. You win. I respect your stance on this and sorry I made you so angry. Its obviously more than just football to you as well. I have been wrong before and will be again. I hope there is football less than I hope everyone is safe.

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RxCowboy

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If only 0.03% of Ford pintos blew up when rear ended they would have been considered good cars. You win. I respect your stance on this and sorry I made you so angry. Its obviously more than just football to you as well. I have been wrong before and will be again. I hope there is football less than I hope everyone is safe.

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But that isn't what happened with the Pintos, was it.

I hope there is football too, but what we're doing right now isn't the path to it.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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No, I said this decision is one that should be made by university presidents and conference commissioners, and not the players and especially not the idiot football coaches. The university presidents need to be listening to the experts they employ on the matter. And if they allow themselves to put money ahead of the health and safety of the players, the "Ford Pinto" strategy, shame on them.

You are the one playing on emotions. You are so overly emotional you are blind to it. That's why you keep trying to make it about you, "don't tell me what to do". This has nothing to do with you. You're just a fan. This is nothing but entertainment to you.
I submit that you keep making this about you. You are scared of the unknown and think that sports shouldn’t continue. You and others continue making “what-if” scenarios and things that are rare. Football has inherent risk.

If my child was a football player I would be 100% behind his team playing,
I have two daughters returning to college and one living in a sorority house. I am 100% behind her choice to return to school and as much normalcy as possible.
I have two nieces that are college soccer players and am 100% behind them desperately wanting to play for their school.
My good friend is a dad of one of our starters (btw, should have mentioned he is in the medical field) and am 100% behind him wanting to watch his son play the sport that he loves.

Are you telling us that if your son was a football player that you would have him opt-out? If so, that is fine. Players should have the ability to opt-out and remain on scholarship.

Again, as I and others have said. Not playing football doesn’t magically keep a student from getting the virus. If school is virtual only, the likelihood that a student-athlete could get the virus most likely increases.
I would understand if your argument was about fans in packed stadiums, but you are making things up just to legitimize the fear you have. Understand that all of us know that the virus is real and all of us know precautions need to be taken, but canceling college football does nothing to curtail the spread or reduce the risk of the virus in student-athletes.
 

CocoCincinnati

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Feb 7, 2007
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If it's the health of your kid, which one do you want
If it was my kid, I probably wouldn't let them play. But there are parents that DO want them to play and the conferences are telling them no.

Besides my main point was that the conferences aren't any better informed on the long term effects of this thing than the players are.

If the argument is that the season should be cancelled strictly because we don't know one way or the other then fine....Just don't make the case that this is the informed vs the ignorant, we're all ignorant on this thing right now.
 

Rack

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You can make whatever decisions you want. But, frankly, this is a case where the adults, the people with expertise in things like, I don't know, medicine, epidemiology, and law, need to make decisions that 18-22 year olds simply aren't capable of making for themselves. You guys are proving that with every "you can't decide for me" post when college football is nothing but entertainment to you. And this "you can't decide for me" selfishness is what has brought us to this place, where we teeter on the brink of not having football this fall, and maybe even not have any college sports at all for 20-21.

So, congrats. Mission accomplished. Well done. You got what you wanted.
First of all your premises that it's "selfish to have a mind that isn't controlled by arrogant, often wrong, and biased "medical professionals" sometimes with a massive profit incentive, hasn't brought us to a place where we cannot have sports...Because despite most people doing nearly exactly as the experts have advised in their various for several months...We still have "experts" that fail to understand that the virus has killed mostly in nursing homes and the elderly and that we need to protect at-risk populations and let the rest of the public make their own healthy decisions. This football question isn't about health and safety mostly and never was, it's is and was about monetary risk mitigation and the all might dollar. A condition that has been produced by a multitude of factors, and not even the main one being health and safety from this virus. The main one is litigation, the second one is politics, the third is MAYBE controlling the spread (which is flawed because it will only increase the spread when these kids aren't monitored round the clock as they will be IF we have college football).

The other problem with this is, When does the hyper arrogant highroad that you and other "professionals" claim as "risk mitigation" end? Does it end with this virus, or are you going to move on to concussions, the flu, strap throat, the common cold (which this virus is a form of)? Honestly, if "professionals," like you cannot see the grossly inept overblown drama of this pandemic of a virus then we really have no hope for our future, not just this season in terms of college football. When too many people start to think like and that they have the right and duty to "protect" we the people, and not allow them/us to do the things they love in safe ways, then we are losing massive freedoms. The much better option is to innovate and safely move forward.

How many of you that liked this post and agreed with it have ever played physical contact sports? The doctor ALWAYS advises against playing when you do whatever you happen to do to your body. I was a wrestler and a gymnast, they tell you all the time every time to wait longer than you will and to do this or that when you know very well, if you are the slightest bit competitive that you are going to start as soon as your body tells you it's alright, not the doctor. You also put on a brace or another device or take something to help the pain, you innovate, you don't quit. Canceling seasons is quitting, not innovating and it's counter productive and IMHO will result in MORE lives lost than less. Doctors and medical professionals are notoriously over cautious...if we did everything the medical experts advised we would NEVER play another down of football again because it is inherently dangerous. We would also still have 55 mile an hour speed limits and not be allowed to a multitude of things we enjoy as freedoms in the USA> Thank God we don't always follow medical advice...if we did, on everything these days, we would stay locked up in our homes and never be allowed to travel....massively restricted in order to gain extra time against a virus, first for it's ability to kill and increasingly so now for it's "prolonged health effects." Bottom line death is evitable and guaranteed for all living creatures, the best course is to know where you are going, because it's coming...none of us get out of here alive. Innovate and move the freak on with our lives.

"Carry on my wayward sons....don't you cry no more."
 

Rack

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Of course they want to play, which is exactly why adults need to listen to physicians, epidemiologists, etc. and make decisions for them, because this is bigger than them. We can't subject them to risks that you wouldn't take yourself, and arguing "don't force it on me" when it is a decision being made for them doesn't make any sense.
Let them and their parents make their own choices...those are the people who have always had those choices in the past...the medical community wouldn't allow them to take any risk if it was up to them and sports would cease to exist.
 
Jan 21, 2006
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Just and anecdote on what we don't know. My daughter, 48 and very fit, healthy and an ER nurse in LA, had Covid 3 months ago. Her case seemed pretty mild, being just sick for 5 days and quarantined for 9 more, then back to work. Now, she has been on medical leave for 5 weeks with vertigo from no known cause. This is only correlation, not causation, but another data point that there is a lot more unknown than known about Covid.
 

RxCowboy

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If it was my kid, I probably wouldn't let them play. But there are parents that DO want them to play and the conferences are telling them no.

Besides my main point was that the conferences aren't any better informed on the long term effects of this thing than the players are.

If the argument is that the season should be cancelled strictly because we don't know one way or the other then fine....Just don't make the case that this is the informed vs the ignorant, we're all ignorant on this thing right now.
Conferences have universities with med schools and law schools and such. Some of them in the B1G and Pac 12 are pretty dang fine institutions, and there are more than a few in the SEC, ACC and Big 12 that are no slouches. If the conferences aren't any better informed than the parents and players, then we really need to pitch everything and start over, but it isn't true. The university presidents and conference commissioners are listening to experts who are advising them. The have to, because they have liability issues they have to think of.

We're not all ignorant on this thing right now. Why is it impossible to admit that there are people who know more than you? My point was that, watching this board and this conversation, lay people have such a difficult time understanding all of this that we simply can't count on the kids understand it and being able to make informed decisions. You're proving that, not disproving it.
 

RxCowboy

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Let them and their parents make their own choices...those are the people who have always had those choices in the past...the medical community wouldn't allow them to take any risk if it was up to them and sports would cease to exist.
Oh, yeah, you've convinced me. That approach is so totally working!