Is Special Teams Coach Really Necessary

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Aug 16, 2012
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#21
Nobody. Nobody at all. The team drew straws to pick a kicker and punter during 2-a-days then on each 4th down, the rest of the team lines up along the wall just like in grade school and the most popular kid walks up and down and picks 10 other guys to run out onto the field. The shift during the Baylor game, that was ad libbed in the huddle just before the snap. The play shook out something like, "hey, let's see what happens if we move from one formation to the next, it will be cool."

I would shake my head but I am afraid you are serious that you do not think the team spends any time on special teams under the direction of a coach.
 
Jul 25, 2018
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#22
Nobody. Nobody at all. The team drew straws to pick a kicker and punter during 2-a-days then on each 4th down, the rest of the team lines up along the wall just like in grade school and the most popular kid walks up and down and picks 10 other guys to run out onto the field. The shift during the Baylor game, that was ad libbed in the huddle just before the snap. The play shook out something like, "hey, let's see what happens if we move from one formation to the next, it will be cool."

I would shake my head but I am afraid you are serious that you do not think the team spends any time on special teams under the direction of a coach.
You're wasting your breath here, if you haven't figured that out.

It's his personal mission to defend & deflect any & every criticism or question of Gundy.

It's never anybody's fault in his world, not the coaches, not the players, ever. Shit just happens & there's no reason teams win or lose games. They all try just the same!
 
Feb 4, 2016
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#23
We need a special teams coach, we need him to be an outstanding recruiter and to take on another position. I have seen Joe Deforest's name mentioned and he was a really good recruiter and we had above average special teams while he was coaching. I know that we currently use young players and walk-ons on special teams and have since we quit having a special teams coordinator. With the exception of the BSU game I would say that special teams has been at best a liability in every game this season. And has cost us the last 2 games. I don't know why, but Gundy pulled Sinor after the first punt that went for a big return, maybe he was supposed to kick it out of bounds and didn't I'm not sure but seemed odd.
Gundy in his press conference today said Sinor was dazed on the play and staff decided to sit him out the rest of the game.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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#24
Which is not "teaching a kicker how to kick."
It is a stupid strawman. It doesn't even make sense and I explained why. Does a quarterback coach teach a quarterback how to throw? Do they show up to practice unable to throw and get taught? OF course not. You are being ridiculous.

And you ignored the point that we had great kickers when we had a coach, and not as good now. IT doesn't matter whether you think it is ludicrous that people think a GA isn't as good, what matters is results on the field. There are many factors that can play a part in that, and the fact that a good kicker might not want to go to a school where special teams are relegated to a GA could be part of it.

Posting walls of words with strawmen that you knock over doesn't make your point. I won't even bother to respond to the rest of them.
Wow, YOU started with the straw man, not me. Just to refresh your memory, from above..

Despite the apparent belief here, special teams coaches do not teach a kid how to kick.
The overt premise throughout this thread and others is, a special teams coach would have resulted in made field goals.....period. Does not work that way and again, you introduced the straw man to the discussion by ignoring salient points and attempting to justify your argument based on the same point I opened with. The kid already knows how to kick and knows more about how and why his kicks behave in the way they do. If a kid is missing regularly, a coach/analyst/other kickers can provide insight as to how or why a particular kick did something or, as they do, use video to analyze kicks during practice. This is not rocket science. I have an app on my phone where I can set it on the ground in front of my golfball and it tells me my swing plane, clubhead speed, angle of attack and track the ball flight. This is nothing new. The kid learned how to kick well before he got there, I have said that from the beginning but you conveniently ignore that. When he boots several to the right during practice, he knows how to fix it. A special teams coach spends the majority of his time with formations and coverage/returns than he does with actual kickers.

As for the other part, at times we had better kickers....because they were better kickers, plain and simple. DeForest did not make Bailey or Sharp or anyone else a better kicker. Your point falls apart with Grogan. Grogan was here from 2013-2016, AFTER DeForest left. Grogan is just 2nd all-time in field goals, 4th in field goals in a year and 6th in field goal accuracy for a career. The funny thing is, Amendola actually has a better accuracy rating than Bailey, Grogan, and Blanchard. And by the way, we lost to ISU in 2011 on a missed field goal by one of the best kickers we have ever had....WHILE WE HAD A SPECIAL TEAMS COORDINATOR. That right there pretty much says it all.

Done. You guys think a ST coach is some sort of panacea when it is not.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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#25
Said I was done but wanted to add one other little tidbit. Leonard Johnson. A freshman nobody who set the D1 single game record for kickoff returns against OSU special teams headed by none other than Joe DeForest. A record that included 319 total yards for an average of 35 yards/return including runs of 72, 73 and 48 yards. Yeah. By all means, let us bring back THAT coach.
 
Jul 25, 2018
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#26
Wow, YOU started with the straw man, not me. Just to refresh your memory, from above..



The overt premise throughout this thread and others is, a special teams coach would have resulted in made field goals.....period. Does not work that way and again, you introduced the straw man to the discussion by ignoring salient points and attempting to justify your argument based on the same point I opened with. The kid already knows how to kick and knows more about how and why his kicks behave in the way they do. If a kid is missing regularly, a coach/analyst/other kickers can provide insight as to how or why a particular kick did something or, as they do, use video to analyze kicks during practice. This is not rocket science. I have an app on my phone where I can set it on the ground in front of my golfball and it tells me my swing plane, clubhead speed, angle of attack and track the ball flight. This is nothing new. The kid learned how to kick well before he got there, I have said that from the beginning but you conveniently ignore that. When he boots several to the right during practice, he knows how to fix it. A special teams coach spends the majority of his time with formations and coverage/returns than he does with actual kickers.

As for the other part, at times we had better kickers....because they were better kickers, plain and simple. DeForest did not make Bailey or Sharp or anyone else a better kicker. Your point falls apart with Grogan. Grogan was here from 2013-2016, AFTER DeForest left. Grogan is just 2nd all-time in field goals, 4th in field goals in a year and 6th in field goal accuracy for a career. The funny thing is, Amendola actually has a better accuracy rating than Bailey, Grogan, and Blanchard. And by the way, we lost to ISU in 2011 on a missed field goal by one of the best kickers we have ever had....WHILE WE HAD A SPECIAL TEAMS COORDINATOR. That right there pretty much says it all.

Done. You guys think a ST coach is some sort of panacea when it is not.
I don't think it's a panacea, but anybody being real here would readily admit that Gundy has completely changed course on his thought process re ST's. DeForrest was one of the highest paid ST coaches in the country, for years, & now it's a GA position.

Further, can you honestly argue that FG's, KO's, Punting & the return game haven't declined?

Most level-headed people aren't saying that a ST coach will fix everything. They're saying that it's a huge part of the game, has hurt us badly over the last few years, & that a dedicated coach for it might improve things.
 
Aug 22, 2006
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#27
Said I was done but wanted to add one other little tidbit. Leonard Johnson. A freshman nobody who set the D1 single game record for kickoff returns against OSU special teams headed by none other than Joe DeForest. A record that included 319 total yards for an average of 35 yards/return including runs of 72, 73 and 48 yards. Yeah. By all means, let us bring back THAT coach.
If one game is the reason why you don't want a coach back it would be hard to justify anyone on this staff. Deforest brought in a whole lot of players from the Houston area, also several Samoan players are a direct result of him opening that pipeline. I always viewed him as an asset for his recruiting more than a ST coach.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
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#28
Wow, YOU started with the straw man, not me. Just to refresh your memory, from above..



The overt premise throughout this thread and others is, a special teams coach would have resulted in made field goals.....period. Does not work that way and again, you introduced the straw man to the discussion by ignoring salient points and attempting to justify your argument based on the same point I opened with. The kid already knows how to kick and knows more about how and why his kicks behave in the way they do. If a kid is missing regularly, a coach/analyst/other kickers can provide insight as to how or why a particular kick did something or, as they do, use video to analyze kicks during practice. This is not rocket science. I have an app on my phone where I can set it on the ground in front of my golfball and it tells me my swing plane, clubhead speed, angle of attack and track the ball flight. This is nothing new. The kid learned how to kick well before he got there, I have said that from the beginning but you conveniently ignore that. When he boots several to the right during practice, he knows how to fix it. A special teams coach spends the majority of his time with formations and coverage/returns than he does with actual kickers.

As for the other part, at times we had better kickers....because they were better kickers, plain and simple. DeForest did not make Bailey or Sharp or anyone else a better kicker. Your point falls apart with Grogan. Grogan was here from 2013-2016, AFTER DeForest left. Grogan is just 2nd all-time in field goals, 4th in field goals in a year and 6th in field goal accuracy for a career. The funny thing is, Amendola actually has a better accuracy rating than Bailey, Grogan, and Blanchard. And by the way, we lost to ISU in 2011 on a missed field goal by one of the best kickers we have ever had....WHILE WE HAD A SPECIAL TEAMS COORDINATOR. That right there pretty much says it all.

Done. You guys think a ST coach is some sort of panacea when it is not.
You need to look up what a strawman is. You are not using the word correctly.
 
Jul 25, 2018
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Boulder, CO
#29
If one game is the reason why you don't want a coach back it would be hard to justify anyone on this staff. Deforest brought in a whole lot of players from the Houston area, also several Samoan players are a direct result of him opening that pipeline. I always viewed him as an asset for his recruiting more than a ST coach.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
DeFo was a huge recruiting asset, no question.

The return game, without question, was much, much better under him, fwiw.

Better way to put it is this: If you're a head coach & you acknowledge that ST's are a huge part of the overall game, do you trust a GA or an actual coach to oversee that unit?
 

RxCowboy

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#30
You're wasting your breath here, if you haven't figured that out.

It's his personal mission to defend & deflect any & every criticism or question of Gundy.

It's never anybody's fault in his world, not the coaches, not the players, ever. Shit just happens & there's no reason teams win or lose games. They all try just the same!
You've got to be kidding. I'm criticizing Gundy for not have a special teams coordinator. Can you not read? Do you not comprehend?
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
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#31
Nobody. Nobody at all. The team drew straws to pick a kicker and punter during 2-a-days then on each 4th down, the rest of the team lines up along the wall just like in grade school and the most popular kid walks up and down and picks 10 other guys to run out onto the field. The shift during the Baylor game, that was ad libbed in the huddle just before the snap. The play shook out something like, "hey, let's see what happens if we move from one formation to the next, it will be cool."

I would shake my head but I am afraid you are serious that you do not think the team spends any time on special teams under the direction of a coach.
Oh, I'm dead certain that someone decided who the kicker was going to be, how we we were going to line up for punts, etc. I'm also certain that our special teams are ineffective and have cost us games and that we don't have a special teams coordinator, someone who has a primary responsibility for implementing that part of the game. You can defend that if you want. It is apparent to me that we need one.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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#34
Here we go again. Damnit, I hate myself for keep getting dragged into this. I need to keep this on my desktop I guess because I do not have the time to keep looking up the info.


2018
Kick return defense-37th,19.3 ypr
Kick returns-74th, 19.82 ypr
Punt return defense-69th, 8.22 ypr
Punt returns-89th, 7.06 ypr

That is right here, right now.

So....let us go back to those glory days of Joe DeForest. Last five years of his tenure here, with full Gundy recruits in the last half so no excuses about players kicked off, bad recruiting, etc. For your convenience, I have highlighted the stats that are worse than or the same as we have right now.

2007
KRD-44th, 20.44
KR-74th, 20.82
PRD-111th, 14.05....111th out of 120 teams remember
PR-69th, 8.2

2008
KRD-109th, 24.98...includes allowing an NCAA record for return yds in a game.
KR-18th, 23.86....that is with Perrish Cox who ranked #3 in the country
PRD-32nd, 6.54....yep, better, but amazingly, Fodge had only 13 returns on 36 total punts all year
PR-2nd, 18.04...Again, better, but we had some guy name Bryant returning punts who ranked #3 nationally.

2009
KRD-108th, 24.39
KR-116th, 18.52...Even with returners such as Cox, Smith, Bryant, Hunter and Toston
PRD-119th, 17.7...Only South Florida kept us from being dead last
PR-13th, 13.3...Cox, Bryant and Cooper

2010
KRD-119th, 27.38...Whew, at least we were better than New Mexico.
KR-33rd, 22.93...Gilbert, Randle, Thomas, Hunter, Bowling.
PRD-73rd, 9.22
PR-36th, 9.75....same guys PLUS Gilbert as the year before, but worse results

2011
KRD-108th, 24.21
KR-49th, 22.25...Gilbert and several others, yet worse totals than the year before
PRD-98th, 11.13
PR-115th, 3.42...3.42 freaking yards/return with a guy that could catch a falling anvil in front of a moving train but return teams could only get him 3.42 ypr. Surprised he was not killed that year.

So again, please tell me how much better we were with a "titled" ST coordinator in the glory days of DeForest vs. now? The revisionist history is amusing. I guess the apparent man-crush some of you had, what with his hat on backwards, chaw in his mouth and goatee, blinded his actual results. With one exception, yards allowed was worse then than now. Return yards were usually better, but I am sure that is because it was DeForest who taught those guys how to run really really fast.
 

swamppoke

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#38
We need a special teams coach, we need him to be an outstanding recruiter and to take on another position. I have seen Joe Deforest's name mentioned and he was a really good recruiter and we had above average special teams while he was coaching. I know that we currently use young players and walk-ons on special teams and have since we quit having a special teams coordinator. With the exception of the BSU game I would say that special teams has been at best a liability in every game this season. And has cost us the last 2 games. I don't know why, but Gundy pulled Sinor after the first punt that went for a big return, maybe he was supposed to kick it out of bounds and didn't I'm not sure but seemed odd.
Don't go there. Defo is not the answer.
 
Nov 14, 2010
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#39
Here we go again. Damnit, I hate myself for keep getting dragged into this. I need to keep this on my desktop I guess because I do not have the time to keep looking up the info.


2018
Kick return defense-37th,19.3 ypr
Kick returns-74th, 19.82 ypr
Punt return defense-69th, 8.22 ypr
Punt returns-89th, 7.06 ypr

That is right here, right now.

So....let us go back to those glory days of Joe DeForest. Last five years of his tenure here, with full Gundy recruits in the last half so no excuses about players kicked off, bad recruiting, etc. For your convenience, I have highlighted the stats that are worse than or the same as we have right now.

2007
KRD-44th, 20.44
KR-74th, 20.82
PRD-111th, 14.05....111th out of 120 teams remember
PR-69th, 8.2

2008
KRD-109th, 24.98...includes allowing an NCAA record for return yds in a game.
KR-18th, 23.86....that is with Perrish Cox who ranked #3 in the country
PRD-32nd, 6.54....yep, better, but amazingly, Fodge had only 13 returns on 36 total punts all year
PR-2nd, 18.04...Again, better, but we had some guy name Bryant returning punts who ranked #3 nationally.

2009
KRD-108th, 24.39
KR-116th, 18.52...Even with returners such as Cox, Smith, Bryant, Hunter and Toston
PRD-119th, 17.7...Only South Florida kept us from being dead last
PR-13th, 13.3...Cox, Bryant and Cooper

2010
KRD-119th, 27.38...Whew, at least we were better than New Mexico.
KR-33rd, 22.93...Gilbert, Randle, Thomas, Hunter, Bowling.
PRD-73rd, 9.22
PR-36th, 9.75....same guys PLUS Gilbert as the year before, but worse results

2011
KRD-108th, 24.21
KR-49th, 22.25...Gilbert and several others, yet worse totals than the year before
PRD-98th, 11.13
PR-115th, 3.42...3.42 freaking yards/return with a guy that could catch a falling anvil in front of a moving train but return teams could only get him 3.42 ypr. Surprised he was not killed that year.

So again, please tell me how much better we were with a "titled" ST coordinator in the glory days of DeForest vs. now? The revisionist history is amusing. I guess the apparent man-crush some of you had, what with his hat on backwards, chaw in his mouth and goatee, blinded his actual results. With one exception, yards allowed was worse then than now. Return yards were usually better, but I am sure that is because it was DeForest who taught those guys how to run really really fast.
Interesting stuff and you obviously know more about this aspect of the game than most.

What I think you've convinced me of is that our special teams haven't been very good in a long time.

I remember them being better under Deforrest than you've shown they actually were.

I think the big returns from Cox and Gilbert skewed the way I remember those Special Teams units.

So....
What the data you've shown means, in my opinion, is that we need a special teams coordinator that can improve these numbers, but it doesn't need to be Joe Deforest.

In 2011, I'll say this

Our offense was so good that all we needed out of our return game was just simply not to make a mistake and turn the ball over.

Just catch the ball and get down.

And....

I remember the huge leg that Sharp had on kickoffs.

I think our cover units expected him to kick it out of the endzone on every kick.

So...
When he didn't I think their was a certain human element of surprise that cost us a couple long returns.

Not that guys weren't hustling, but when you hear in the huddle for Sharp to kick it deep, you expect not to have to cover because you fully expect the ball to go out of the endzone.

I think that, since our offense has become so explosive, Gundy has focused less on returns because our offense is such a big play offense that it's not as big of a factor as if it would be if we played more to field position and time of possession.

And... At the same time he's focused more on coverage to help defenses that haven't been good

With the way we play, being heavily offensively oriented, I think if he has his choice between having good cover units vs good return units he would choose good cover units.

In terms of kickers

The way you describe it, It seems similar to being a Major League hitting instructor.

Major League hitting instructors don't teach Major Leaguers how to hit. They're in the Big Leagues because they already know how to hit.

They don't teach Major league hitters how to swing the bat. They're in the big leagues because they already know how to swing a bat.

But, what they do do for them is they manage them. When they aren't performing as well as they would like they give them something to believe in.

Sometimes that's a mechanical issue broke down on film and sometimes they just need to convince the athlete that nothing is wrong but the skill he's performing is just hard and that he just needs to stay with it.

In other words, your job is to make them feel bullet proof and give them tangible reasons to feel that way

To do that there has to be a large amount of trust that would have to be easier to obtain with a full time, highly qualified special teams coordinator whose job is to take care of these issues.
 
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pokes16

Territorial Marshal
Oct 16, 2003
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#40
I remember this board demanding Defo be fired a lot. And how happy people were when he was gone. And FWIW Dana coaches ST for WVU.