Oklahoma State Basketball Program Assessment

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Aug 2, 2011
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#1
Seeing Tech and KSTATE make deep runs in the tourney got me thinking about our program.

We have not made a good tourney run since 2005. In fact we have just one NCAA victory in that span. Fan support has been inconsistent in the good times and down right bad in the lean times. But despite all of that there still have been lots of memorable moments and players.

Munelo, Anderson, Harris, Eaton, Page, Smart, Brown, Nash, Forte, Evans, Carroll, etc. Had lots of good moments and created lots of good memories for me. It just hasn't translated into sustained success. I don't know the reason. I look at this year's Tech and K State teams thinking that they really aren't anymore talented than some of our teams in the past few years but they are getting it done.

What is the secret ingredient we have been missing? Depth? Talent? Coaching? Bad luck?
 
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CPTNQUIRK

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Nov 20, 2006
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#2
Seeing Tech and KSTATE make deep runs in the tourney got me thinking about our program.

We have not made a good tourney run since 2005. In fact we have just one NCAA victory in that span. Fan support has been inconsistent in the good times and down right bad in the lean times. But despite all of that there still have been lots of memorable moments and players.

Munelo, Harris, Eaton, Page, Smart, Brown, Nash, Forte, Evans, Carroll, etc. Had lots of good moments and created lots of good memories for me. It just hasn't translated into sustained success. I don't know the reason. I look at this year's Tech and K State teams thinking that they really aren't anymore talented than some of our teams in the past few years but they are getting it done.

What is the secret ingredient we have been missing? Depth? Talent? Coaching? Bad luck?
Coaching. Most of that time Travis Ford, who is a great person by all accounts, was not a very good coach. We had talent. Marcus Smart's second year started off great then Cobbins got hurt and the season derailed without a decent post player. That year was lack of depth. Otherwise, it was lack of coaching.
 

RPG

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#3
We also had bad draws (e.g., Oregon, who was severely under seeded) in the NCAA tournament a couple of seasons. It’s been a combination of factors, with the primary factor being poor coaching.
 

RutherfordFan

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Feb 5, 2008
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#5
Michigan was a great offensive team like we were. Made sweet 16 last year and we could have done that. OSU was #1 efficiency offense in America last year just bad on defense. Under Ford we had great guards and no big men. Cobbins in 2013, if he doesn't get hurt we would a been really good. Hopefully Boynton is better at putting a roster together.
 
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Oct 30, 2007
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#6
It's coaching. Throughout the history of our program, we've always been great when we've had great coaching. Coach Ford arguably recruited better than Coach Sutton, but he never maximized the talent he had and he never figured out how to recruit and develop quality front court players.

One of the things that excites me about Coach Boynton is that he really seemed to maximize the talent he inherited. If he can recruit well and continue to get the most out of his players, we could see this become a special program again. :thumbup:
 

CPTNQUIRK

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#7
Michigan was a great offensive team like we were. Made sweet 16 last year and we could have done that. OSU was #1 efficiency offense in America last year just bad on defense. Under Ford we had great guards and no big men. Robbins in 2013, if he doesn't get hurt we would a been really good. Hopefully Boynton is better at putting a roster together.
Cobbins, as I have already mentioned.
 
Sep 8, 2014
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#8
Ford couldn't win an NCAA tourney game with NBA talent.

It's been coaching. Ford might be a great guy and he could recruit but he could not and can not coach.

Imagine if Boynton would have had the chance to work with Solomon for 4 years?

It's like Eddie Sutton and Johnny Pittman.
 

CocoCincinnati

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Feb 7, 2007
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#9
I think the obvious answer is coaching. Sean was doing well until his personal problems caught up with him. It's a shame because I think he would've done a great job, possibly even still coaching here if not for that. Ford could obviously recruit great guards but for whatever reason just could not coach well enough to be successful in this league. Now we have Boynton and I think he has proven this year that he can coach, it remains to be seen whether he can recruit. If he can't, coaching won't matter and we'll be looking for somebody else in a few years.....if he can, let's hope we can keep him from leaving so we won't have to be looking for somebody else in a few years.
 

superpoke

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Jun 28, 2005
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#10
It's interesting you mention Kansas State, because if you need further evidence that it's been coaching, apart from the other replies, you only have to look at the Wildcats. They had mediocre coaching for almost 20 years and tanked what had been a yearly conference contender.
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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#11
Eddie didn't do Sean any favors. Sean's downward spiral didn't help us.


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This and the Thunder coming to OKC about the same time as the Sutton family troubles caused about a decade and a half long skid from where it was...at it's height under Eddie, the program was nearly KU like in terms of our fan support...however Eddie rarely beat KU and football was abysmal...It seems we have a tough time supporting both football and basketball to the tune financially and physically (butts in seat) needed to be a top program in both at the same time..How do we fix it? Beer? ;-)
 
Sep 8, 2014
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#12
This and the Thunder coming to OKC about the same time as the Sutton family troubles caused about a decade and a half long skid from where it was...at it's height under Eddie, the program was nearly KU like in terms of our fan support...however Eddie rarely beat KU and football was abysmal...It seems we have a tough time supporting both football and basketball to the tune financially and physically (butts in seat) needed to be a top program in both at the same time..How do we fix it? Beer? ;-)
Keep being competitive.

A salty, well coached team will keep the excitement going. Win some games. Make a good showing in those you lose. Put out a fundememtally sound team. The folks will keep coming.
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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#13
Keep being competitive.

A salty, well coached team will keep the excitement going. Win some games. Make a good showing in those you lose. Put out a fundememtally sound team. The folks will keep coming.
I don't doubt that people will come, but to be at a fan support level we were might not happen again. Basketball has changed since that time with more and more kids moving on to the nba faster than in those days, football has caught and lapped basketball in terms of fan support and intrest with both the students and alumni. Financial support for football is at an all time high in the past decade and it takes that level of commitment in order to compete where we want to compete...I'm just not sure if our pockets are deep enough to support both at the level it takes to be outstanding (in terms of fan support) at both at the same time. Certainly we can do better regarding basketball support, and I think that HCMB is an outstanding coach/person that just might make that happen.
 
Aug 21, 2009
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#14
Coaching and talent. Ford was a decent recruiter but he couldn't recruit a team. His rosters had huge holes in them in terms of position and depth. I like Mike B. for his focus on hard work and defense and he seems to connect with the kids but we have no idea if he can put together a decent roster that is balanced, competitive with some depth to weather a few injuries. OSU has done a decent job with some senior transfers recently but Eddie made a living off of filling the gaps with JUCO guys that many times turned out to be our best players. I hope HCMB can learn from Eddie in this regard because we have some holes going into next year.
 
Nov 12, 2007
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#15
Coaching and talent. Ford was a decent recruiter but he couldn't recruit a team. His rosters had huge holes in them in terms of position and depth. I like Mike B. for his focus on hard work and defense and he seems to connect with the kids but we have no idea if he can put together a decent roster that is balanced, competitive with some depth to weather a few injuries. OSU has done a decent job with some senior transfers recently but Eddie made a living off of filling the gaps with JUCO guys that many times turned out to be our best players. I hope HCMB can learn from Eddie in this regard because we have some holes going into next year.
This right here.

People always talk about how Ford was some kind of great recruiter. He wasn't. Part of the recruiting is building a team. Ford was really good and landing one or two big-time recruits every couple of years, but terrible at putting together a coherent team around those guys.

Then his coaching wasn't good enough to make up for his poor ability to assemble a team.

That's how you can have a team with two future NBA players as starters and not win a Tournament game.
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
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#16
Keep being competitive.

A salty, well coached team will keep the excitement going. Win some games. Make a good showing in those you lose. Put out a fundememtally sound team. The folks will keep coming.
I don't doubt that people will come, but to be at a fan support level we were might not happen again. Basketball has changed since that time with more and more kids moving on to the nba faster than in those days, football has caught and lapped basketball in terms of fan support and intrest with both the students and alumni. Financial support for football is at an all time high in the past decade and it takes that level of commitment in order to compete where we want to compete...I'm just not sure if our pockets are deep enough to support both at the level it takes to be outstanding (in terms of fan support) at both at the same time. Certainly we can do better regarding basketball support, and I think that HCMB is an outstanding coach/person that just might make that happen.
The NBA can only take so many players. They are becoming saturated now as more go in than are leaving. Unless they expand, the 'one and done' is gonna slow down.

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Oct 27, 2003
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#17
Coaching and talent. Ford was a decent recruiter but he couldn't recruit a team. His rosters had huge holes in them in terms of position and depth. I like Mike B. for his focus on hard work and defense and he seems to connect with the kids but we have no idea if he can put together a decent roster that is balanced, competitive with some depth to weather a few injuries. OSU has done a decent job with some senior transfers recently but Eddie made a living off of filling the gaps with JUCO guys that many times turned out to be our best players. I hope HCMB can learn from Eddie in this regard because we have some holes going into next year.
This right here.

People always talk about how Ford was some kind of great recruiter. He wasn't. Part of the recruiting is building a team. Ford was really good and landing one or two big-time recruits every couple of years, but terrible at putting together a coherent team around those guys.

Then his coaching wasn't good enough to make up for his poor ability to assemble a team.

That's how you can have a team with two future NBA players as starters and not win a Tournament game.
Our problems didn't start with Ford. Put the blame where it belongs.


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tmcats

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Feb 13, 2014
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#18
Always considered myself fortunate to have watched Sutton coach. That guy would go in at halftime with the game in question and come back with new schemes that made shambles of our squads.
 
Jul 2, 2013
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#20
My assessment of the program is both good and bad.

I thought Boyton got better as the season went on. We lost several games due to poor game management(UT, KState first time, Even OU) and some to just bad luck(Arkansas). I think he is already a better coach than Underwood but I think very low of him.

His scheme defensively is much better than Ford and Underwood. He bounces between up the line man and traditional man a lot which gave teams fits. He also switched to zone a lot but sometimes stayed in it way too long. He was for the most part very good in year one on defense.

Offensively he is a work in progress. We run very few sets, and almost zero inbounds plays. We do the same zipper action inbounds play everytime and it doesn't set us up for anything. I nearly everytime results in us throwing it into the backcourt or a very contested pass to the big. I think if Scott stays on, this will change. I hope that it does but big time programs get pts off inbounds plays and having different offenses.
The roster plus Shine has NCAA tournament fringe potential, minus Shine and we hurting. All of that said, I think we can't really even grade it yet because we are going after 2-3 transfers. Weathers is a stud though and will be at or above end of the season Kendal Smith level.

Recruiting wise, Is where I'm worried the most. He lost Lamont and has no regional aau ties to anything near us. It scares me a lot honestly. Without a stud recruiter connected to the AAU scene now days you are tied to transfers and regional kids.
That said he has tried to make in roads with PWP and Team Griffin a lot, which would help 2019 a ton.

I think Boyton is a genuinely likeable guy who got better as the season went on. I hope he grows offensively and we will be great. If he can get kids families to campus, and make in roads in Texas and the AAU scene we will be in a great position.