Question regarding the public reactions to racism

  • You are viewing Orangepower as a Guest. To start new threads, reply to posts, or participate in polls or contests - you must register. Registration is free and easy. Click Here to register.

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
28,935
31,511
1,743
oklahoma city
#61
In other words, you’ve decided who can ask legitimate questions, and who can provide meaningful answers. Further, you seem to think you qualify on both ends but refuse to come down off your high horse and rationally discuss the issues. Instead, you simply tell us “you rich/white guys aren’t welcome in the discussion.

Think you might be part of the problem?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Absolutely I think I am part of the problem. And, completely contrary to what you are saying, I'm not telling you that you cannot be part of the conversation. I'm telling you that you are avoiding the conversation by hanging out here in your safe space filled with like minds, like lives, and like beliefs when the big wide world of the internet makes it so very easy to talk to the actual people living it. Or, as I said, you can volunteer and spend some time trying to help them. You would not have nearly as many questions, then.
 
Mar 11, 2006
2,759
1,834
1,743
#62
Absolutely I think I am part of the problem. And, completely contrary to what you are saying, I'm not telling you that you cannot be part of the conversation. I'm telling you that you are avoiding the conversation by hanging out here in your safe space filled with like minds, like lives, and like beliefs when the big wide world of the internet makes it so very easy to talk to the actual people living it. Or, as I said, you can volunteer and spend some time trying to help them. You would not have nearly as many questions, then.
You bring up a slightly different issue. Why do you feel you are part of he problem? Are you doing something to be racist...if so, why?
 
Sep 29, 2011
1,555
353
713
60
Breckenridge, CO
#63
In other words, you’ve decided who can ask legitimate questions, and who can provide meaningful answers. Further, you seem to think you qualify on both ends but refuse to come down off your high horse and rationally discuss the issues. Instead, you simply tell us “you rich/white guys aren’t welcome in the discussion.

Think you might be part of the problem?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Absolutely I think I am part of the problem. And, completely contrary to what you are saying, I'm not telling you that you cannot be part of the conversation. I'm telling you that you are avoiding the conversation by hanging out here in your safe space filled with like minds, like lives, and like beliefs when the big wide world of the internet makes it so very easy to talk to the actual people living it. Or, as I said, you can volunteer and spend some time trying to help them. You would not have nearly as many questions, then.
Okay, thanks for informing me and others we can’t, or shouldn’t, discuss certain issues in this forum.

And thanks for suggesting I volunteer to help solve something I can’t talk about.

You’re rich.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
28,935
31,511
1,743
oklahoma city
#64
You bring up a slightly different issue. Why do you feel you are part of he problem? Are you doing something to be racist...if so, why?
Yep, I treat patients differently based on their race. Not only me personally, health care workers do it. Study after study has shown it. Adjusting for socio-economics does not make it go away.
Why? I'm not the expert in why but I suspect because it is learned behavior.
I try my hardest to realize that and avoid it but I'm not going to claim I am not part of the issue.
 
Mar 11, 2006
2,759
1,834
1,743
#65
Yep, I treat patients differently based on their race. Not only me personally, health care workers do it. Study after study has shown it. Adjusting for socio-economics does not make it go away.
Why? I'm not the expert in why but I suspect because it is learned behavior.
I try my hardest to realize that and avoid it but I'm not going to claim I am not part of the issue.
I respect that you admit it. Appreciate the honesty.
 
Jun 15, 2020
14
5
3
22
Tulsa
#66
This lead-in shows a lack of understanding of what systemic racism is and who/what causes it. Until you make an attempt to better grasp what the subject is, any actual answers to your question (instead of the validation of the friendly crowd here that it appears you are actually seeking) will fall on deaf ears.

If not simply seeking validation of your firmly held beliefs based on your experiences as a wealthy white guy, post this exact commentary-posed-as-a-question on a board that is actually visited by the people that you are asking about. Then try listening to what they say instead of picking out flaws in their words based on your worldview.

If validation of your views on this are what you really seek, you are asking in the right place!
systemic racism is the US is liberal victimization garbage....you are telling me that because of the color of you skin or your ethnicity determines how successful you will be???
False..
That is a strange way of saying you don't believe there is such a thing as systemic racism. I strongly disagree.

Lets start with the criminal justice system, specifically the drug war. Whites and blacks use drugs at almost exactly the same rate (https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/hidden-costs-drug-prohibition), but blacks are jailed at anywhere from 4-6 times the rate for the same offense. When jailed for the same offense, they are jailed longer than whites (https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...onger-prison-sentences-than-white-men-for-the). You also have the crack and cocaine discrepancy in sentencing where crack had penalties 100x greater per weight, despite the fact that the active dose was not 100x smaller. This was implemented in the mid 80's and not revised until 2010! (https://www.ussc.gov/research/congr...port-congress-impact-fair-sentencing-act-2010). Drug offenses according to this report were the plurality of all offences at over 38%. (https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vfluc.pdf)

Then, with a larger percentage of those incarcerated with felonies, they no longer can get a decent job after they are released, cannot support their kids effectively and at that point it has a community effect.

I would say that the majority of the people who are involved in the criminal justice system are not racist, although a few are, and the policies put in place and how they were executed (the Broken Window theory of policing), had an impact that heavily impacted minorities in a negative way.

Then you have policies like redlining, which were ended long ago, but had a major impact on wealth building---just look at how much housing and property values have gone up since then. Many blacks were prevented from getting into the market at all, or if they did, they could only purchase homes in poorer areas.

Its one thing if everyone started off at a roughly similar place and one group fell far behind on their own volition. Using a running analogy: It is another thing to not be allowed to participate at all for a couple hundred years, then when they are allowed to participate, have to run with a weighted backpack for another 100 years. When the weighted backpack is removed, they get time penalties for doing stuff other people in the race are doing.
This is such garbage...get you facts straight!!!!!!
Black Nigerian immigrants have the highest test scores and highest income of any subgroup in the UNited States. Seems like your liberal victimization theory falls flat. Next group Asians, amazing how these groups are thriving in your systemic racist country.
 
Sep 29, 2011
1,555
353
713
60
Breckenridge, CO
#67
You bring up a slightly different issue. Why do you feel you are part of he problem? Are you doing something to be racist...if so, why?
Yep, I treat patients differently based on their race. Not only me personally, health care workers do it. Study after study has shown it. Adjusting for socio-economics does not make it go away.
Why? I'm not the expert in why but I suspect because it is learned behavior.
I try my hardest to realize that and avoid it but I'm not going to claim I am not part of the issue.
I suppose charging patients based on their economic wherewithal is not feasible these days. My dad used to do so back in the day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
28,935
31,511
1,743
oklahoma city
#68
I suppose charging patients based on their economic wherewithal is not feasible these days. My dad used to do so back in the day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It is not allowed if you bill Medicare (can't bill less than). But, I have in the past purposefully underbilled (such as billing a simple laceration repair for a complex repair) which is still illegal but nearly impossible to prove. I would often do that for the uninsured roofers/carpenters etc.
 

steross

Bookface/Instagran legend
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
28,935
31,511
1,743
oklahoma city
#69
systemic racism is the US is liberal victimization garbage....you are telling me that because of the color of you skin or your ethnicity determines how successful you will be???
False..


This is such garbage...get you facts straight!!!!!!
Black Nigerian immigrants have the highest test scores and highest income of any subgroup in the UNited States. Seems like your liberal victimization theory falls flat. Next group Asians, amazing how these groups are thriving in your systemic racist country.
Cool. Thanks for the info on Nigerians. I worked with several Nigerians in Australia as well as one person from Zimbabwe and one from Rwanda. All great people.

So, what is the reason that new immigrants do well but our own minorities do so poorly? If not racism, what? Why would actual Nigerians who could live in poverty not live in poverty but people who are Americans with the same ethnic background do so? As you obviously strongly feel it is not racism, what is it that makes it happen to them more than others?

BTW, the doctor from Zimbabwe was one of the best docs I ever worked with. Very sharp. Did very well on the written exam for emergency medicine fellowship. But, despite trying many, many times, could never pass the oral exam proctored by another physician.

The Australian College of Emergency Medicine (ACEM) has been accused of systemic racism by more than 30 non-white students, who have revealed their white colleagues are 13 times more likely to be admitted as specialist emergency doctors.

The students have lodged a highly detailed 34-page complaint with the college showing that, of 204 candidates participating in the program for the second half of last year, non-white candidates — who make up more than a quarter of all enrolments — had a clinical exam pass rate of just 6.8 per cent. https://emergencypedia.com/2017/01/28/shocking-article-acem-accused-of-systematic-prejudice/
 

okstate987

Territorial Marshal
A/V Subscriber
Oct 17, 2009
7,716
4,726
1,743
Somewhere
#70
Regarding the justice system. It’s hard to know what to believe because statistics are gathered, parsed and reported in significantly different ways. For example, many defendants are arrested on multiple charges, but plead out to a single charge. Also, many defendants are arrested with or without a criminal history. Also, comparing jurisdictions means potentially comparing different mandates from the public, different political environments, and different prosecutors. Some jurisdictions are heavy minority, some very light minority.

I will say any defendant with access to expensive representation is more likely to get a better result, but in and of itself, that’s not racism, just an unfortunate flaw in our justice system.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sure, there are many ways to parse the data, but the effect on a particular community is going to be higher if they are picked up at that much of a higher rate, even after controlling for the variables you mentioned. That isn't going to add up 400 to 650% of the total effect.
 
Oct 12, 2019
507
92
43
30
Dustin,ok
#71
Democrats are expert at rewriting history, but it’s very hard to hide the racist past that has spanned over 150 years. Tear down Lincoln’s statues but his actions endure,
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
9,778
4,058
743
#72
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Where do you see systemic racism in our society?
I hear there is systemic racism embedded in our justice system, education system, corporate job environments, sports leagues, and various other institutions and organizations. While there may be some level of racism contained therein, IMO, the problems the black community experiences in those environments have many root causes which won’t be meaningfully solved by curing any imbedded racism that may exist.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]Tearing down statues, especially statues paid for and commissioned by slaves, is stupid and won't solve anything.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
9,778
4,058
743
#74
Here's the info I came across that opened my eyes to what people mean when they say systemic racism. It's long, and it completely contradicts what most people in here believe, so it will likely get ignored, but that's ya'lls problem not mine.

"You can't interpret the economic and social situation of the African American community in a vacuum without considering the broader history of racism in America. We know from centuries of research that the most important type of wealth is generational wealth, assets that can pass from one generation to another. You wouldn't have the opportunities that you have today if your parents didn't have the opportunities they had, and they in turn wouldn't have had their success in life without the success of your grandparents, etc.
Considering that we know this, consider the economic plight of the average African American family in America. When slavery was abolished, there were no reparations. There was no forty acres and a mule. There was no education system that was both willing and able to accommodate African American children, to say nothing of illiterate adults. With the exception of a brief moment of Reconstruction, there was no significant force dedicated to upholding the safety and political rights of African Americans. Is it any wonder that sharecropping became such a ubiquitous system of labor? For many freed slaves, they quickly wound up working for their masters once again, with very little changes in their day to day lives. And through all of this, white America was profiting off of the work of black America, plundering their property and labor. When slavery was abolished, it was a more lucrative field than all of American manufacturing combined, including the new railroad. The American industrial revolution/rise of big business was already booming, but it was overshadowed by the obscene wealth of plantation slavery. By 1860, one in four Southern Americans owned a slave. Many southern states were majority black, up to 70% black in certain counties of my home state Virginia, the vast majority of them unfree laborers. Mississippi and South Carolina were both majority black. There's a reason that the South was able to pay off its debts after the Revolution so quickly. When you consider just how essential black uncompensated labor was to this country, it's no exaggeration to say that slaves built America.
From this moment onewards til about the 1960s, racism was the law of the land. Sharecropping was slavery by another name and "separate but equal" was an offense against human rights, and those two institutions alone created a massive opportunity gap that has continued repercussions in the today. But what very few people consider is the extent to which the American government empowered people to create or acquire wealth during this time, and the extent to which they denied black Americans the same chances. There was no "Homestead Act" for black people, for instance. When FDR signed the Social Security Act, he specifically endorsed a provision that denied SS benefits to laborers who worked "in the house or the field," in so doing creating a social security net that the NAACP described as "a sieve with holes just big enough for the majority of Negroes to fall through.” Black families paid far more than their white counterparts trying to support past generations instead of investing in the future. During the Great Depression, elder poverty was above 50%. Consider on top of this how expensive it is to be poor, especially when you are black. If your son gets sick but you are white and can buy insurance, you will be set back the deductible and copay. If you are black and shut out of an insurance market, you may burn your life savings on care and still not find an good doctor willing to help a black patient. This idea that the poor and socially disadvantaged are more vulnerable is called exploitation theory, and it's really important to understanding race in America.
Nowhere is exploitation theory more important than in housing. It's obvious that desegregation was never a platform that this nation embraced wholeheartedly, but the extent that segregation was a manifestation of formal policy is something that often gets forgotten. The home is the most important piece of wealth in American history, and once you consider the home ownership prospects of African Americans you'll instantly understand how vital and essential the past remains in interpreting the present when it comes to race.
During the 1930s, America established the FHA, an agency dedicated to evaluating the worth of property and helping Americans afford homes. The FHA pioneered a policy called "redlining," in which the worth of a piece of property was tied to the racial diversity of its neighborhood, with more diversity driving down price. When white homeowners complained that their colored neighbors drove down prices, they were speaking literally. In addition, the FHA and other banks which used their ratings (which were all of them, more or less) resolved not to give a loan to any black family who would increase the racial diversity of a neighborhood (in practice a barrier of proof so high that virtually no black families received financial aid in purchasing a home). These practices did not end until 1968, and by then the damage had been done. In 1930, 30% of Americans owned homes. By 1960, 60% of them did, largely because of the FHA and the lending practices its presence in the market enabled.
Black families, cut out of this new American housing market and the government guarantees which made it possible, had nowhere to go. This was all taking place during the Great Migration. Black families were fleeing from old plantation estates where they still were treated like slaves, and traveling to the North in search of a better life. When they arrived, there was nowhere to live. White real estate owners quickly realized how to exploit the vulnerability of the black community. They bought up property and sold homes to African American families "on contract." These contracts were overpriced, and very few could afford to keep their homes. To make matters worse, these contracts were routinely broken. Often contracts guaranteed heating or other bills, but these amenities would never be covered. Even though black families "bought" these houses, a contract is not like a mortgage-- there was little to no expectation of future ownership. The owners of these contract houses would loan the property, wait for payments to cease, evict the family, and open the house up to the next gullible buyer fleeing from lynching in the south. None of it mattered. By 1962, 85% of black homeowners in Chicago lived in contract homes. And these numbers are comparable to cities all across the country. For every family that could keep holding onto the property til these practices were outlawed, a dozen spent their life savings on an elusive dream of home ownership that would never come to fruition.
This practice of exploiting African Americans to sell estate had real consequences. As black contract buyers streamed into a neighborhood, the FHA took notice. In addition to racist opposition to integration from white homeowners, even the well-intentioned had difficulty staying in a neighborhood as the value of their house went down. How could you take out a loan to pay for your daughter's college or finance a business with the collateral of a low-value piece of land? White flight is not something that the U.S. government can wash its hands of. It was social engineering, upheld by government policy. As white families left these neighborhoods, contract buyers bought their houses at a fraction of the cost and expanded their operation, selling more houses on contract and finally selling the real estate to the federal government when the government moved into public housing, virtually ensuring that public housing would not help black families move into neighborhoods of opportunity. And the FHA's policies also helped whites: without the sterling credit ratings that businessmen in lily-white communities could buy at, there would be no modern suburb. All of this remains today. When you map neighborhoods in which contract buyers were active against a map of modern ghettos, you get a near-perfect match. Ritzy white neighborhoods became majority-black ghettos overnight.
I said that this was all going to be a history lesson, but there's an important facet of sociology that you need in order to complete the story. There's a certain type of neighborhood that's known as a "nexus of concentrated poverty," a space where poverty is such a default state that certain aspects of economic and social life begin to break down. The level is disputed, but for the purposes of the census the U.S. government defines concentrated poverty as 40% or more of residents living below the poverty line. At this level, everything ceases to function. Schools, funded by taxpayer dollars, cannot deliver a good education. Families, sustained by economic opportunity, cannot stay together. Citizens, turned into productive members of society through ties to the economic well-being of that society, turn to crime out of social disorder. In America today, 4% of white adults have grown up in such neighborhoods. 62% of black adults were raised in them.
You are right to note certain facets of black society: the drug use, family anarchy, etc are not imaginary, though they certainly are not policed fairly or represented honestly in the white American consciousness. But these are the symptoms, not the causes of black poverty. Go to the spaces of concentrated white poverty, and you will find similar statistics. The reason that black society is the way it is is that black families have been systemically cut out of the normal avenues of upward mobility, and that has more to do with white supremacy than with saggy jeans or rap music."
I don't think anyone will dispute the fact that things like slavery, oppression, & historical systemic racism have played a big part in where the African American community is today. Those are well documented facts. But the question is, what about our current system is systemically racist and needs to be changed?
I can answer your question. What is currently racist is the Democrat party and their shift to Marxism and wanting to continue the breakdown of the family unit. That already has affected the black community with the high single parent rate. They now want it to get worse.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
9,778
4,058
743
#75
It's just not true. It is an excuse. Black people in this country did not have these types of problems until the Democrats tried to fix them, and created all of the problems that exist.

The statistics exist if you care to look into it. Black families were no more likely to be singly parent households than the rest of America, and on and on.

It is attitudes like yours that continues to perpetuate the problems.

Leo Terrell, a prominent Civil Rights Attorney, flat out said that systemic racism does not exist in America. DOES NOT EXIST.

Why should I belive your opinion over his?
Why should you believe his opinion over the thousands of black voices who have been trying to get through to you for decades? Nothing Republicans love more than the lone black man who will tell them what they want to hear.
It's not a lone black anyone... There are thousands out there that are conservative and don't agree with this. You just have to look for them because the mainstream media won't give them a voice.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

CocoCincinnati

Federal Marshal
Feb 7, 2007
15,801
16,871
1,743
Tulsa, OK
#78
So I was watching the Macy's 4th of July special yesterday and two groups stood out to me. The first was Lady Antebellum which have had to change their name to Lady A because the word Antebellum is now bad. The second group was The Killers...nothing at all wrong with that name apparently. You get that; Antebellum bad, Killers good.
 
May 31, 2007
1,309
343
1,713
Edmond, OK
#79
Years later as an adult, I was wrongly arrested for DUI after being stopped on I-35. I hadn't a drop to drink that day. So to no surprise of myself and my attorney my blood test for alcohol came back negative. So, of course, I'm gonna fear the cops.
Did the cops rough you up or something? Right after college early on a Sunday morning the cops broke my apartment door down, pulled me & my roommate out of bed, put us to the ground and cuffed us. They were serving a search warrant (I assume for drugs but they never told us). After checking our IDs they realized they had the right apartment number but the wrong building number. So they uncuffed us and went about their business really without apologizing. But even with that I have zero fear of police.
What? You didn't play with fire when you were a child?
I think the funny part of your story is your fear of fire fighters. That’s a new one for me.
 
Sep 22, 2011
3,745
2,803
743
33
#80
That is a strange way of saying you don't believe there is such a thing as systemic racism. I strongly disagree.

Lets start with the criminal justice system, specifically the drug war. Whites and blacks use drugs at almost exactly the same rate (https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/hidden-costs-drug-prohibition), but blacks are jailed at anywhere from 4-6 times the rate for the same offense. When jailed for the same offense, they are jailed longer than whites (https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...onger-prison-sentences-than-white-men-for-the). You also have the crack and cocaine discrepancy in sentencing where crack had penalties 100x greater per weight, despite the fact that the active dose was not 100x smaller. This was implemented in the mid 80's and not revised until 2010! (https://www.ussc.gov/research/congr...port-congress-impact-fair-sentencing-act-2010). Drug offenses according to this report were the plurality of all offences at over 38%. (https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vfluc.pdf)

Then, with a larger percentage of those incarcerated with felonies, they no longer can get a decent job after they are released, cannot support their kids effectively and at that point it has a community effect.

I would say that the majority of the people who are involved in the criminal justice system are not racist, although a few are, and the policies put in place and how they were executed (the Broken Window theory of policing), had an impact that heavily impacted minorities in a negative way.

Then you have policies like redlining, which were ended long ago, but had a major impact on wealth building---just look at how much housing and property values have gone up since then. Many blacks were prevented from getting into the market at all, or if they did, they could only purchase homes in poorer areas.

Its one thing if everyone started off at a roughly similar place and one group fell far behind on their own volition. Using a running analogy: It is another thing to not be allowed to participate at all for a couple hundred years, then when they are allowed to participate, have to run with a weighted backpack for another 100 years. When the weighted backpack is removed, they get time penalties for doing stuff other people in the race are doing.
Blacks and whites USE drugs at the same rate, they dont DEAL drugs at the same rate, they dont participate in gangs, assault, rob, murder, rape or commit other violent crimes at the same rate.

as to why this is the case? Probably need someone smarter than me for that, but i would start with the 70% of black children being raised by single mothers