1. You are viewing Orangepower as a Guest. To start new threads, reply to posts, or participate in polls or contests - you must register. Registration is free and easy. Click Here to register.

Southern Baptists

Discussion in 'World News & Politics' started by docjoctoo, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. Hokey_Pokey

    Hokey_Pokey Sheriff

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    2,646
    Location:
    Voted Sexiest OP Member by Harris Poll
    I was preferably looking for a one word descriptor, something that would fit the phrase,"The government _________ that it wouldn't do that," or similar.
     
  2. Binman4OSU

    Binman4OSU Federal Marshal

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Messages:
    14,061
    Location:
    The Party of Government Cheese
    The phrase your looking for has already been said...just in a different manner

    Notice it didn't start We the Government
     
  3. Hokey_Pokey

    Hokey_Pokey Sheriff

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2008
    Messages:
    2,646
    Location:
    Voted Sexiest OP Member by Harris Poll
    I could quibble some more about wording in the amendments, but I think your sentiment is right.

    of course, this discussion has nothing to do with the thread topic or really my original post.
     
  4. Cimarron

    Cimarron It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2007
    Messages:
    42,256
    That seems to be a fundamental difference?

    While some see things as "We the people" others see it as "We the government"
     
    rideemcowboys likes this.
  5. Binman4OSU

    Binman4OSU Federal Marshal

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2007
    Messages:
    14,061
    Location:
    The Party of Government Cheese
    If you replaced We the People with We the Government in the constitution......the society we live in today would actually be easier to accept

    We the Government would actually support the entitlement that goes on
     
  6. docjoctoo

    docjoctoo Sheriff

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    2,703
    Location:
    Oklahoma City
    It is my lifelong quest to understand what it means to be a Christian. It has gradually changed as I have sought an answer to this question. I have found that too much for what passes for being Christian in too many churches and denominations has nothing at all to do with Jesus. In fact much of what happens in churches drives people away who are honestly seeking to know God and his son trying to understand what life is all about. I don't blame them for their criticism of churhes. Too much of what happens in churches is fleshly and ungodly.
     
    osupride97 and bleedinorange like this.
  7. 88KeysPoke

    88KeysPoke Wrangler

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2005
    Messages:
    129
    Location:
    Oklahoma City
    Certainly, Christians in general need to be more diligent to speak the truth in love, but at the same time, a lost person will not fully understand Christianity until they make the decision to trust Christ for salvation. Christians themselves are still sinners and are still in the process of growing and maturing. I'm not excusing any bad things that happen in churches, but no one will ever find a perfect church. They're all full of sinners, and if you let people be your hangup, then you'll never get over it.
     
  8. naranjaynegro

    naranjaynegro Territorial Marshal

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,145
    Location:
    Houston area
    truer words were never spoken
     
  9. NYC Poke

    NYC Poke Sir Dr. Lawyer Esquire, Lord of East Texica A/V Subscriber

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    24,262
    Doc, I'll give you the most sincere, measured response I can to this. I will try to be apolitical, though this will unfortunately have to touch on politics as a necessity. I am not wading through all the responses because I know how these threads tend to devolve, and I'm not really interested in arguing with anyone over religion. This is nothing more than my two cents, based completely on my personal experiences.

    The denomination got off to a poor start. It broke off from the other Baptists on the issue of slavery. I know the church has since changed its position on race and slavery, but that is not an auspicious beginning and is the poor basis for the founding of a denomination.

    However, I was raised in Southern Baptist churches and was baptized in one. I went to First Baptist Church in downtown Tulsa, and later Southern Hills Baptist on South Lewis (it was a shorter drive). Both had excellent pastors, Dr. Warren C. Hultgren and Dr. Clyde Lee Herring, respectively. Dr. Hultgren was active in the Civil Rights movement in Tulsa at a time when that was probably not the popular stance there. He formed relationships with prominent clergy from other churches to lend moral authority to the movement.

    While attending Vaction Bible School at First Baptist, we were given tours of other churches (and synagogues) and had their beliefs explained to us. We were taught that it was important to understand the beliefs of others, and that while there may be differences, those differences should not separate us. We were taught that our choice of church should be an informed decision.

    I was also taught in Sunday School that, while the Bible was Truth, we may not understand the Truth as written. For example, the 7 days in which God created the world might be God's idea of 7 days, not man's idea of 7 days. But then I had Sunday School classes taught by my grade school science teacher and my grade school principal (among others).

    I never heard anything about drinking or dancing (I think I was in college when I learned these were Southern Baptist taboos). In fact, I remember one sermon where Dr. Herring was explaining that, even though he was the preacher, he was still one of the church just like everybody else, and there was no need for everyone to hide their beers when he joined them to watch a football game! Needless to say, politics were never discussed other than to ask God's blessing for our elected leaders. To the extent hot button issues of the day were discussed, it was in the spirit of exploration and debate.

    The overall message was of acceptance, education, and, mostly, love. For we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

    To me, the SBC seemed to change from the top in the 80s and 90s (I may not have noticed stuff that happened earlier because I was younger). It seemed to develop a disdain for science, as evidenced by Sunday School lesson plans sent out by SBC that "proved" evolution was false (though perhaps my Sunday School teachers "skipped" that lesson the way my Mom did when she was teaching Sunday School and was presented with those materials). SBC has certainly become more politically active in ways I could not imagine when I was growing up. And it appears to me to have become rigidly doctrinaire.

    In short, the SBC as it exists now does not seem to be the same church I grew up in. Perhaps if I'd stayed in the same place and continued attending the same church, the change would have been so gradual I wouldn't have noticed. But I have noticed. I sometimes wonder whether Drs. Hultgren and Herring would find a church in today's SBC.

    I now attend a nondenominational Cowboy Church. I understand full well that the views of most of the flock are probably pretty much in line with the SBC, but nobody beats you over the head with it (also, there is an understanding that the flock is made up of cowboys and oilfield hands, and they tend to go through phases of hard living; it just comes with the territory). It's come as you are and love your brothers and sisters. Sunday is a celebration.

    I'm not saying that this is better (I've been to Cowboy Churches that are not like this). It's just more in line with what I believe and what I was brought up with.
     
  10. State

    State Cold Ass Honkey A/V Subscriber

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    10,499
    Location:
    Home
    I'm surprised no one touched this gem.
     
    Slugger926 and bleedinorange like this.
  11. naranjaynegro

    naranjaynegro Territorial Marshal

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,145
    Location:
    Houston area
    Good story NYP.....you hardly devolved there at all;)
     
    NYC Poke likes this.
  12. bleedinorange

    bleedinorange Territorial Marshal

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    8,690
    Location:
    Knocking on death's door
    Two problems each different in nature. One, it's much too easy a target by its innaness, and two, where would one start? ;)
     
    Slugger926, PokealypseNow and State like this.
  13. Cowboy2

    Cowboy2 Doesn't have #Ebola. A/V Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    2,888
    Location:
    OKC
    Considering the direct nature of that quote, it would stand to reason that He is speaking directly to Jeremiah

    I point this out just because despite your belief in a pre-existent state (if I could describe it as thus-- if not feel free to correct) and your looking to this line of text as evidence of said belief, it won't mean the same thing to someone who doesn't share that belief.

    I'm not trying to put down your faith, as actually I myself believe that God knew us before our current existence, just pointing out that in this instance, God is directly referencing the fact that he knew what Jeremiah could accomplish and so someone else might not see it the same way you do.
     
    PokealypseNow likes this.
  14. PokealypseNow

    PokealypseNow Territorial Marshal

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2008
    Messages:
    5,774
    Location:
    An Okie in Orygun
    Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeermeneutics.
     
  15. osupride97

    osupride97 Ambassador of Quan A/V Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    6,386
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    I thought about this very thing awhile after I posted it. And I get what you are saying. However, my belief (was told to say that from now on), is that if God knew Jeremiah before he was born, wouldn't it stand to reason that He also knew every one of us before we were born? He does not treat any of us any different. He loves us all the same. He sent Christ to die for all of us. So, while He may indeed have been speaking to Jeremiah, I do believe He was speaking to me as well.

    We can all get hung up on scripture, who's right, who's wrong, the bottom line is that He just wants a relationship with us. Thanks Adam and Eve for messing it all up! :)
     
  16. osupride97

    osupride97 Ambassador of Quan A/V Subscriber

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    6,386
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    I found a couple of other scriptures to back up my belief.

    Acts 17:26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

    Psalm 139: 14-16 14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    Wonderful are Your works,
    And my soul knows it very well.
    15 My frame was not hidden from You,
    When I was made in secret,
    And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
    16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
    And in Your book were all written
    The days that were ordained for me,
    When as yet there was not one of them.
     
  17. Cowboy2

    Cowboy2 Doesn't have #Ebola. A/V Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    2,888
    Location:
    OKC
    I understand completely, and I'm not saying that that very scripture doesn't back up your belief. I actually reference that scripture when I think on my beliefs about a pre-existent state. I'm merely saying that it's hard to use when talking to those who don't have that belief simply because of the direct nature of the scripture, that's all. ;)
     
    osupride97 likes this.
  18. docjoctoo

    docjoctoo Sheriff

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Messages:
    2,703
    Location:
    Oklahoma City
    NYCPOKE....first from what I know of you, you going to a Cowboy Church is a surpirse. But I have heard good things about that group. I ought to drop in and see for myself. Like many have posted Baptists are a large and diverse group. No one Baptist Church is exactly like the other.
    I asked the original question because I really wanted to know peoples honest opinion. Like many here I feel Baptists, like too many churches, have erected to many rules, are too critical of others, and are too proud of being Baptists. Too often we use fancy words and ideas that people do not understand rather than preaching the central message of Jesus. We drive off people who are really seeking help. Many are seeking God, but by how we live and act we drive them off.
     
    NYC Poke and bleedinorange like this.
  19. bleedinorange

    bleedinorange Territorial Marshal

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Messages:
    8,690
    Location:
    Knocking on death's door
    Here's an old favorite of mine that seems apropo to your words. Hope you enjoy.

    The Better Way by Edgar A. Guest (1881-1959)

    I'd rather see a sermon
    Than hear one any day;
    I'd rather one should walk with me
    Than merely show the way.

    The eye's a better pupil,
    And more willing than the ear;
    Fine counsel is confusing,
    But example's always clear.

    The best of all the preachers
    Are the men who live their creeds,
    For to see good put in action,
    Is what everybody needs.

    I can soon learn how you do it,
    If you let me see it done;
    I can watch your hands in action,
    But your tongue too fast may run.

    And the lectures you deliver
    May be very wise and true;
    But I'd rather get my lesson,
    By observing what you do,

    For I may misunderstand you,
    And the high advice you give,
    But there's no misunderstanding
    How you act and how you live.
     
    steross likes this.
  20. NYC Poke

    NYC Poke Sir Dr. Lawyer Esquire, Lord of East Texica A/V Subscriber

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    24,262
    I've spoken to quite a few people who essentially agree with Baptist theology, but who felt uncomfortable at the Baptist churches in whatever little town they grew up in. The denomination is so dominant in some places that the big Baptist church also turns into a de facto country club for the town's political and economic "elite." The guys who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks or working for these "elite" -- the oilfield hands, the cowboys, the guys who fix cars, etc. -- just don't feel comfortable there. This probably has less to do with the SBC that class stratifications in small towns. Same thing probably would have happened had the Methodists or the Presbyterians been the dominant denomination.

    As for your surprise, well, perhaps your prejudging a little based on my political outlook. I enjoy all kinds of people. Celebrating diversity doesn't mean just hanging out with African-American vegan hipsters in Brooklyn, though I can enjoy that. White people in rural East Texas are part of the diversity, too, and I enjoy them as well.
     
    PlatypusJojo likes this.

Share This Page