Thanks Coach Boynton for putting in such hard work!!

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Which is why I think refusing to cave was not a blunder or bad call by Holder.
No, I think the way everything played out shows that Holder doesn’t have high expectations for our basketball program. He clearly doesn’t have the same expectations has for the football program and now the baseball program. Underwood saw that, and it ticked him off. I honestly can’t blame Underwood for getting angry about Holder’s lack of expectations. I don’t think it was the right thing for him to leave, but this WAS a Holder blunder. Anyway, just my take on it. Refusing to actually spend any money on an experienced coach after Illinois paid us $3 million for Underwood kind of backs up that Holder isn’t willing to invest in the basketball program after the Ford contract debacle.
 

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Thanks, Ptak. Hindsight is an exact science, but I would largely side with Holder at the time. One year post Ford, he couldn't possibly have given a multi-year $3M contract to Underwood. The pitchforks would have been out in force. I also agree with the observation that Underwood was just wearing an OSU shirt, with no commitment.
I can kind of see both sides on it, but when Holder admitted that Underwood’s exit caught him off guard, I think it shows how out of touch Holder is at times.
 

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Thanks, Ptak. Hindsight is an exact science, but I would largely side with Holder at the time. One year post Ford, he couldn't possibly have given a multi-year $3M contract to Underwood. The pitchforks would have been out in force. I also agree with the observation that Underwood was just wearing an OSU shirt, with no commitment.
I don’t think the pitchforks would have been out at all. People were very excited about basketball at the time. And Underwood wasn’t asking for a contract the length of Ford’s. There’s a big difference.
 

JoeHero

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Imho, Underwood was open to the next big gig the moment he was hired at OSU.
Don't forget he took less money to come here the first year and I would guarantee it was under the assumption he'd get a bump in line what other big 12 coaches are making if he had success. He felt Holder's offer was insulting and slithered away like the snake he is.
 
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Just for reference what was Underwood’s initial salary? What was he reportedly asking for after season? What was holders final offer? How much is he making at Illinois?
 

RutherfordFan

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Just for reference what was Underwood’s initial salary? What was he reportedly asking for after season? What was holders final offer? How much is he making at Illinois?
Underwood was given 1 million first year. He was offered $2.5 million after first year that was raise I've been told. Illinois gave him $3 million and he walked. Underwood claimed that Holder compared osu basketball program to kstate and Underwood claims he was frustrated by Holder lack of vision and comparison. I admit pissed but being compared to kstate if that's true. Why mentioned them, they never do anything in any sport.
 
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Underwood was given 1 million first year. He was offered $2.5 million after first year that was raise I've been told. Illinois gave him $3 million and he walked. Underwood claimed that Holder compared osu basketball program to kstate and Underwood claims he was frustrated by Holder lack of vision and comparison. I admit pissed but being compared to kstate if that's true. Why mentioned them, they never do anything in any sport.
Thanks for the salary figure.

To me, this is telling if our offer was $2.5M. Underwood is STILL not making $3M. Per terms of his contact, he is making/made
1 - $2.75M
2 - $2.85M
3 - $2.95M (where he is at now)
4 - $3.05M
5 - $3.15M
6 - $3.25M

So from a money standpoint, it all happened over $250K.

And to the other point, at the time, we were comparable to the mentioned teams. He never said that was his goal for the program, he just pointed out that BU was asking for money commensurate with being a top 2-3 or even 2-4 team and at that time, we were not. Called reality.

I do not consider BU's departure a Holder fail, but my opinion.
 
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If those salary numbers are right and he left over $250k, then his relationship with his manager (Holder) played a significant role in his decision. You rarely leave a manager you like working for unless it is a chance of a lifetime. Illinois wasn't that.

You can work numbers, by increasing salary and decreasing the length of the contract or the amount of the buy-out. Moving guaranteed money around.
 
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If those salary numbers are right and he left over $250k, then his relationship with his manager (Holder) played a significant role in his decision. You rarely leave a manager you like working for unless it is a chance of a lifetime. Illinois wasn't that.

You can work numbers, by increasing salary and decreasing the length of the contract or the amount of the buy-out. Moving guaranteed money around.
I do not know about "chance of a lifetime" since he clearly has a track record of quickly moving on. But at Illinois, he could restore the basketball team (which was really not in horrible shape to begin with) to the undisputed jewel of the athletic department. Not trying to say Illinois is bad, but they really do not have any preeminence in any sport recently. He could easily put basketball back in the driver's seat (if it ever left). At OSU, that would never have happened with Gundy here and the football program.

I cannot speak to the relationship. Do know Holder is generally reserved in public but can be painfully blunt and at times, reportedly lacks the appropriate degree of tact. BU is clearly a hothead and per the prior-noted Trammel article, he started to storm out of the last meeting, was asked to come back, but got pissed off again. Personally, I think it was an ego issue and even if he stayed, it would have been a tenuous relationship at best. I also think he would have eventually left after only a few years if successful. It is clear to me he had no intention of staying.
 

wrenhal

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If those salary numbers are right and he left over $250k, then his relationship with his manager (Holder) played a significant role in his decision. You rarely leave a manager you like working for unless it is a chance of a lifetime. Illinois wasn't that.

You can work numbers, by increasing salary and decreasing the length of the contract or the amount of the buy-out. Moving guaranteed money around.
I do not know about "chance of a lifetime" since he clearly has a track record of quickly moving on. But at Illinois, he could restore the basketball team (which was really not in horrible shape to begin with) to the undisputed jewel of the athletic department. Not trying to say Illinois is bad, but they really do not have any preeminence in any sport recently. He could easily put basketball back in the driver's seat (if it ever left). At OSU, that would never have happened with Gundy here and the football program.

I cannot speak to the relationship. Do know Holder is generally reserved in public but can be painfully blunt and at times, reportedly lacks the appropriate degree of tact. BU is clearly a hothead and per the prior-noted Trammel article, he started to storm out of the last meeting, was asked to come back, but got pissed off again. Personally, I think it was an ego issue and even if he stayed, it would have been a tenuous relationship at best. I also think he would have eventually left after only a few years if successful. It is clear to me he had no intention of staying.
I stand by my statement that many people I know in the department were not unhappy when he left. Very toxic guy.

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JoeHero

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Thanks for the salary figure.

To me, this is telling if our offer was $2.5M. Underwood is STILL not making $3M. Per terms of his contact, he is making/made
1 - $2.75M
2 - $2.85M
3 - $2.95M (where he is at now)
4 - $3.05M
5 - $3.15M
6 - $3.25M

So from a money standpoint, it all happened over $250K.

And to the other point, at the time, we were comparable to the mentioned teams. He never said that was his goal for the program, he just pointed out that BU was asking for money commensurate with being a top 2-3 or even 2-4 team and at that time, we were not. Called reality.

I do not consider BU's departure a Holder fail, but my opinion.
I think the 2.5 refers to the life of the contract just as the 3 refers to the life of the Illinois contract. So it ends up being millions more when you take that into consideration
 
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That "Gift of a Lifetime" was embarrassing. Our defense was basically to act like Holder and Boone were a couple of rubes who couldn't understand a contract.

Can't argue with the results with the facilities though.
I don't remember all of the details of the situation, but in fairness, what they were attempting wasn't a first of its' kind idea. IIRC, it just wasn't done the right way.

1. Does Duke accept gifts of life insurance policies?
Yes, Duke accepts gifts of life insurance policies that meet certain criteria. Generally speaking, if the policy is fully “paid-up” (meaning that further premiums will not be due on the policy regardless of investment or market performance), then Duke will very likely accept the policy.Duke may also accept a policy that is not fully paid-up if the donor pledges to make gifts to Duke in the amount of premiums due, and if the policy meets specific parameters regarding the death benefit and the premium payment schedule. Even if your policy does not meet these parameters, Duke will consider accepting the policy on a case-by-case basis.
 
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If Underwood was toxic simply because he is a toxic person then it was poor vetting for a position that needed stability.

If he became toxic due to his circumstances at OSU then the OSU basketball working environment has issues.

Either way....
It was either a bad hire or a bad environment created by the Athletic Department, specifically Holder.

Holder has done a ton of good for OSU, but there is no good way to defend his oversight of the basketball program.

He has made 1 mistake after the other to put us in the position we are in now, with Brad Underwood being one of them.
 
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I stand by my statement that many people I know in the department were not unhappy when he left. Very toxic guy.

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Kinda what I've heard too. Not that he's necessarily toxic, just not a guy people really enjoyed working with.
 
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Wasn't Holder on the front page of ESPN.com and other major news outlets saying Gundy needs to recruit better?
Sure, yeah, we'd all like to see more 4-5 star recruits at OSU. But why is our AD on ESPN calling out the football coach? i've never seen that before, ever. What a terrible way to 'communicate'.

Obviously Holder's done good work for OSU. He's been a great fundraiser. So, why not create a new position, athletic department chief fundraiser. Give him a nice office. Give him a group of assistants who will kiss his ring and make sure his ego is safe and secure.

But please get a real AD in here to hire and work with the coaches.
How do you know that Holder didn't discuss getting better results with better recruiting with Gundy? Don't you think Holder has the knowledge and class to keep things in house before he goes out to the public and put public pressure on Gundy if Gundy scoffed at Holder's suggestion?

Holder is smarter than that.And to think that Holder doesn't know how to communicate is just an indication of how little intelligence you give the OSU administration.
Don't you think Boone Pickens values Holder's business sense?
 
Jul 25, 2018
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If Underwood was toxic simply because he is a toxic person then it was poor vetting for a position that needed stability.

If he became toxic due to his circumstances at OSU then the OSU basketball working environment has issues.

Either way....
It was either a bad hire or a bad environment created by the Athletic Department, specifically Holder.

Holder has done a ton of good for OSU, but there is no good way to defend his oversight of the basketball program.

He has made 1 mistake after the other to put us in the position we are in now, with Brad Underwood being one of them.
Eh, I see it a little differently & think perspective gets lost over time. (not necessarily pointing a finger at you, just human nature & hindsight)

So, step by step here, & I'm probably forgetting a detail or two:

Hiring Sean: no-brainer move when a legendary coach falls from grace

Hiring Ford: you have to say it was a good hire at the time, results were initially good, then in a show of commitment to the BB program the 10 year deal was a mistake. I'll readily admit that I thought we had the guy who would lead the program to some nice heights for years.

Hiring Underwood: again, results say it was a good hire & he was a hot coach. I don't pretend to know who's to blame, what their relationships were, if Underwood even wanted to be at a football school long term, etc... Don't know if Holder had misgivings about the step up he gave Ford or what, but regardless, he hired a good coach who left after one year.

Hiring Boynton: a complete reach & step backward. Didn't agree with it, thought it was basically throwing OSU's hands up & saying "oh well, we can't do better than this." Reminded me of when Tulsa hired John Phillips because they wanted a guy who wouldn't leave, regardless of whether he could win or not.

So I guess I think it's more of a mixed bag with regard to Holder & the BB program. I don't think you can look at it, though, & make some declaration that Holder's actions clearly show he's got something out for one of 2 programs in his department that actually produce revenue, that's just stupid & flies in the face of reality, imo.
 

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I stand by my statement that many people I know in the department were not unhappy when he left. Very toxic guy.

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Might very well be true, but the above statement is very different from "allowed to leave because he was toxic." Everything that was reported at the time differs from that hot take about what was really going on between Holder and Underwood.
 
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Eh, I see it a little differently & think perspective gets lost over time. (not necessarily pointing a finger at you, just human nature & hindsight)

So, step by step here, & I'm probably forgetting a detail or two:

Hiring Sean: no-brainer move when a legendary coach falls from grace

Hiring Ford: you have to say it was a good hire at the time, results were initially good, then in a show of commitment to the BB program the 10 year deal was a mistake. I'll readily admit that I thought we had the guy who would lead the program to some nice heights for years.

Hiring Underwood: again, results say it was a good hire & he was a hot coach. I don't pretend to know who's to blame, what their relationships were, if Underwood even wanted to be at a football school long term, etc... Don't know if Holder had misgivings about the step up he gave Ford or what, but regardless, he hired a good coach who left after one year.

Hiring Boynton: a complete reach & step backward. Didn't agree with it, thought it was basically throwing OSU's hands up & saying "oh well, we can't do better than this." Reminded me of when Tulsa hired John Phillips because they wanted a guy who wouldn't leave, regardless of whether he could win or not.

So I guess I think it's more of a mixed bag with regard to Holder & the BB program. I don't think you can look at it, though, & make some declaration that Holder's actions clearly show he's got something out for one of 2 programs in his department that actually produce revenue, that's just stupid & flies in the face of reality, imo.
Holder priced several 1000 people out of Season tickets which is a large part of our pitiful attendance

He gave Ford a contract that held OSU hostage then either didn't vet Underwood well enough or didn't foster a relationship with him well enough to make him happy at OSU.

So....it either was a bad hire or poorly handled

As a result..that situation threw egg straight in OSU's face and it sits at Holder's feet.

He doubled down on that by hiring a search firm to hire
Mike Boynton.

Like I said.....
Holder has done a lot of good for OSU, but his part in the denise of basketball is substantial.