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Jan 13, 2008
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#61
Does anyone watch the Our Time documentary series on ESPN+? It's no wonder these guys came out absolutely flat against KSU and OU. Gundy just repeats the same thing in every single speech. "Alright men I want to see effort, I want to see enthusiasm, and you need to bring your own party". It's just so bland at this point and you can see it on the player's faces.
They showed some speech on TV before the game. I almost started laughing. It was the worst thing I've ever heard. No passion, faking enthusiasm, very blah.

You will give effort because of your teammates, your here because you give effort ...blah blah. He basically congratulated them for their effort before playing, because he knew they would.

It didn't even seem like he believed what he was saying.
 
Aug 16, 2012
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#62
It's NOT coaching...it's talent availability. Only so much talent and it all goes to the powerhouses. It's a losing battle to concentrate on coaching when talent is the issue. We have to have some kind of recruiting leveling in terms of fairness or at least a 8 or 12 added to the playoff...but even with that most teams will continue to flounder at the hands of the power Blue Blood programs who hog all the recruits. It's an unfairly biased system geared to keep the Blue Bloods Blue and strong to create revenue for tv and espn and a huge marketing campaign for college football...Gundy's problem is that he knows this and it's removed his desire in this one game...otherwise he feels he can compete, and does, with the teams on our level. Texas being an outlier due to their poor management of their extreme talent.. You think if Gundy had the depth of Texas talent things wouldn't be very different in the Bedlam series?

If you REALLY want competition you have to be willing to make some recruiting concessions. It's not balanced and it never will be until changes in that system are made.
Not dismissing the talent aspect, it is definitely an issue. But coaching is also a huge issue. Our defense this year proves that with the right coaching, and pretty much the same kids as last year, better results are possible. Gundy has no imagination anymore and every coach in the conference knows his schtick now. I see that as the biggest difference between 2011 and now. Defenses then had absolutely no idea where we were going to hit them. Now? The lowliest of grad assistants can scheme a defense against us. To digress just a bit, I also noted Saturday that most of our pass plays are to spots. You run to the spot and just that spot then a pass might come your way. Most of those spots allowed very little margin for YAC. OU on the other hand was hitting receivers in flat-out runs through zones and picking up bigger chunks of YAC. That is the beauty of the quick slant and why it is successful. It is a pass through a seam with room for YAC.

Agree with hording but IMO, it is the hording of "gray shirt" kids that needs to be stopped.

Also agree with the playoff expansion. If 1-2 teams are the only ones being showcased each year, of course a kid is going to prefer going there.
 
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Aug 16, 2012
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#63
How long have you been a fan of Oklahoma State? You know he doesn't believe in the Raw Raw stuff...He's about golfer and baseball mentality. That being calm in the face of adversity. I believe in the Raw Raw stuff as well, but that's not Gundy...never has been and he's been pretty damn successful with the golf/baseball mentality. But you have to have the players and depth to compete year in and year out with teams that have four stars on three deep...and we just don't. Without recruiting reform this will never change.

Once again, we could raise Knute Rockne from the dead and it would make no difference without recruiting reform.
that is why people go nuts when he does his little dances. He comes out of his staid demeanor for a few seconds. But on the other hand, I doubt anyone said any different about Snyder but he could figure out how to stay low-key and still get his kids fired up.
 

ScooberJake

Territorial Marshal
Jul 13, 2004
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#64
Again, I do not think that scholarship limits beyond what is already in place is necessary. However, as you pointed out, I do think there needs to be a limit on offers and that would be contingent on the number of kids currently on scholarship. It is not equitable for blue bloods to offer all the best kids in a blanket manner. The only problem with that is the OSU's of the world would never offer a 5-star then because it would be unlikely they attend and it would be a hit against the "cap". The practice of "gray shirts" needs to be eliminated and with the exception of special situations, I do not think a school should be able to yank the scholarship of a second-string kid, especially an upper classmen, so they can sign a top incoming recruit. These are the accepted, underhanded practices of many larger schools that IMO not only imbalance the field, but keeps good kids from seeing the field.

No easy answer.
I hadn't thought about limiting offers without limiting scholarships, that's interesting. But as you say it might not help as then only the schools that have a high percentage of landing a 4 or 5 star recruit will offer.

I do like the idea of scholarships being mandatory for four years. (Obviously exceptions would be made for injuries, documented offenses like drugs or skipping practice, etc.) You are right that the big schools take advantage of the current system, gobbling up the high school players with the highest potential, cutting loose the ones who don't pan out, and taking in transfers who show potential elsewhere. It's kind of like the free agent system in the NFL, but without the balancing factors of shared revenue and the draft.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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#65
  • Limit independently named numbers of 4 and 5 star players to sign per team enabling others to sign 4 and 5 star players.
  • Create ncca and conference committee on competition designed to make competition better and reduce doormats and dominance both.
  • Add at least four teams to the CFP.
  • Remove gray shirting.
  • Create Uniform standards for conferences in terms of payments and jobs and such to players as that rolls out.
  • Remove bias in officiating by shared team selection rather than "teams" of officials selected by conference
  • Remove "stacking" of conference positions by powerhouse teams and Universities
 
Jan 13, 2005
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#66
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YOU HAD TWO WEEKS! Get out of here with that s***. I’m a Gundy defender. I think he’s done a lot for OSU but that’s the best you got? Be better.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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#67
So Bill Snyder loaded up with 4 and 5 star players?
Bill Snyder has a losing record vs Gundy and NO national championships...His best EVER year was same as Gundy's...His best years happened with BOTH OU and OSU on probation and he took our and their place during that time. He got a ton of talent out of Tulsa and much of Oklahoma when neither state school could draw them.

YET, I agree, he may be the best coach in college football history BUT KSU still didn't win a title...Had he been in Norman he would have won at least FIVE national titles. So what's your point?

Certainly coaching is a big deal, but conference and college football reform is a MUCH bigger need for schools like OSU, KSU, ISU, KU, TTU, and TCU.
 
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Dec 20, 2015
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#68
V
Bill Snyder has a losing record vs Gundy and NO national championships...His best EVER year was same as Gundy's...His best years happened with BOTH OU and OSU on probation and he took our and their place during that time. He got a ton of talent out of Tulsa and much of Oklahoma when neither state school could draw them.

YET, I agree, he may be the best coach in college football history BUT KSU still didn't win a title...Had he been in Norman he would have won at least FIVE national titles. So what's your point?

Certainly coaching is a big deal, but conference and college football reform is a MUCH bigger need for schools like OSU, KSU, ISU, KU, TTU, and TCU.
What does Snyder’s record against Gundy have to do with it? Snyder won with players that were for the most part lesser players than Gundy has had to work with. Why not in all sports? Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina and Kansas get a majority of the best players. Only let them have 2 scholarships a year and give everyone else 10. Makes about as much sense.
 
Nov 27, 2007
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#69
So Bill Snyder loaded up with 4 and 5 star players?
In Bill Snyder's heyday, KSU was loaded with Talent. In the late 90s/Early 2000s KSU was consistently in the top 25 in recruiting. He was a master at working the JUCO system to bring in game ready talent and blending it with the team. Don't think for a second that those teams were not full of talent and depth.

My biggest critique of Gundy is his talent management. There is no doubt that he is bringing in high character, quality players with a passion for the game. There is no doubt he is bringing in raw talent and developing them into players that would play anywhere in the country. He is great at finding the diamond in the rough. The main issue is that we do not have the depth of talent that we need to compete. When you bring in a 4/5 star and they are not an impact player, its likely they are still good enough to contribute, add depth, and start at a lot of places in the country. When you miss on a 3 star guy, that guy is now your starter when there is an injury, or needed to jump in on rotation.

Like you look at the 2021 class. There may be only 1or 2 guys that we have a commitment from that has an offer from a major program... That is a red flag.
 
Nov 27, 2007
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#72
I hadn't thought about limiting offers without limiting scholarships, that's interesting. But as you say it might not help as then only the schools that have a high percentage of landing a 4 or 5 star recruit will offer.

I do like the idea of scholarships being mandatory for four years. (Obviously exceptions would be made for injuries, documented offenses like drugs or skipping practice, etc.) You are right that the big schools take advantage of the current system, gobbling up the high school players with the highest potential, cutting loose the ones who don't pan out, and taking in transfers who show potential elsewhere. It's kind of like the free agent system in the NFL, but without the balancing factors of shared revenue and the draft.
If we start paying players, then it is no longer about the "STUDENT" athlete. We should drop division 1 to 60 teams and go to a draft. UDFAs can can sign and go where they like.
 
Sep 8, 2014
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#73
The road to the championship of the conference goes through Norman. Gundy has consistently showed he cannot beat ou. Either fire Gundy and take a chance on somebody else or just admit we no longer are in pursuit of the conference championship in football. If we do the later we can put money into the basketball, baseball and wresting programs...sports where we still have coaches who want to compete. That or use the money for academics and say we don’t care about athletics...it’s what schools are actually for anyway.

Gundy either can’t or won’t beat ou. To think otherwise is to deny reality
 
Aug 16, 2012
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#74
If we start paying players, then it is no longer about the "STUDENT" athlete. We should drop division 1 to 60 teams and go to a draft. UDFAs can can sign and go where they like.
Interesting. Not like they get to choose where they would play at the next level, so just make the hard transition now.

Would it be worth just turning your "D1" into a farm system? Each NFL team is assigned a couple of schools where they would have the equivalent of a franchise tag on a small number of players from within their farm system and the rest would then be open for draft by anyone.

Not advocating, just spitballing. (easy to do when you are supposed to be working but really do not want to on Thanksgiving week).
 
Aug 16, 2012
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#75
The road to the championship of the conference goes through Norman. Gundy has consistently showed he cannot beat ou. Either fire Gundy and take a chance on somebody else or just admit we no longer are in pursuit of the conference championship in football. If we do the later we can put money into the basketball, baseball and wresting programs...sports where we still have coaches who want to compete. That or use the money for academics and say we don’t care about athletics...it’s what schools are actually for anyway.

Gundy either can’t or won’t beat ou. To think otherwise is to deny reality
How many times a day do you think Cale has to hide a s**t-eating grin on his face?
 
Nov 27, 2007
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Tulsa
#76
Interesting. Not like they get to choose where they would play at the next level, so just make the hard transition now.

Would it be worth just turning your "D1" into a farm system? Each NFL team is assigned a couple of schools where they would have the equivalent of a franchise tag on a small number of players from within their farm system and the rest would then be open for draft by anyone.

Not advocating, just spitballing. (easy to do when you are supposed to be working but really do not want to on Thanksgiving week).
Haha I'm in the same boat.

Might as well. Might as well put a cap on years of eligibility in college and if a pro player is cut, they'd be able to go back to college to play out their eligibility.
 

Birry

Federal Marshal
Feb 6, 2007
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#77
View attachment 87307 YOU HAD TWO WEEKS! Get out of here with that s***. I’m a Gundy defender. I think he’s done a lot for OSU but that’s the best you got? Be better.
Surely there are more driven, creative, upstanding people on the planet that we could pay $1,000,000+ to develop schemes that give us the best chance with our resources.

Gundy is operating on such a low level when it comes to schemes, preparation, and gameflow decision making. It's painful. We have to find someone that can be better.
 
Dec 20, 2015
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SW OKLA
#78
In Bill Snyder's heyday, KSU was loaded with Talent. In the late 90s/Early 2000s KSU was consistently in the top 25 in recruiting. He was a master at working the JUCO system to bring in game ready talent and blending it with the team. Don't think for a second that those teams were not full of talent and depth.

My biggest critique of Gundy is his talent management. There is no doubt that he is bringing in high character, quality players with a passion for the game. There is no doubt he is bringing in raw talent and developing them into players that would play anywhere in the country. He is great at finding the diamond in the rough. The main issue is that we do not have the depth of talent that we need to compete. When you bring in a 4/5 star and they are not an impact player, its likely they are still good enough to contribute, add depth, and start at a lot of places in the country. When you miss on a 3 star guy, that guy is now your starter when there is an injury, or needed to jump in on rotation.

Like you look at the 2021 class. There may be only 1or 2 guys that we have a commitment from that has an offer from a major program... That is a red flag.
Didn’t say they didn’t have talent. I’m saying he didn’t get the 4 and 5 star high school recruits.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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#79
V

What does Snyder’s record against Gundy have to do with it? Snyder won with players that were for the most part lesser players than Gundy has had to work with. Why not in all sports? Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina and Kansas get a majority of the best players. Only let them have 2 scholarships a year and give everyone else 10. Makes about as much sense.
Snyder had both our and ou recruits for most of the 1990s due to probation for both of us...so no, he did not have lessor players than Gundy has had. As far as leveling the field, what are your ideas? The biggest problem we have is that it’s NOT a level playing field. How do you fix it if not for some type of draft like changes to recruiting? Also need to be done in basketball, I agree.
 
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Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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#80
The road to the championship of the conference goes through Norman. Gundy has consistently showed he cannot beat ou. Either fire Gundy and take a chance on somebody else or just admit we no longer are in pursuit of the conference championship in football. If we do the later we can put money into the basketball, baseball and wresting programs...sports where we still have coaches who want to compete. That or use the money for academics and say we don’t care about athletics...it’s what schools are actually for anyway.

Gundy either can’t or won’t beat ou. To think otherwise is to deny reality
To think anyone else can consistently without a leveling of the recruiting playing field is also denying reality.

our history and the rest of the conference is strewn with horrible failure vs ou football...it ain’t just us...it’s the Jimmy’s and Joes not the Xs and Os
 
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