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GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#41
you said



Am I taking it wrong you think that Auschwitz should still be in place and Confederate statues should still stand?
The question I was responding to had to do with Benedict Arnold getting a statue at West Point.

Hint: Not confederate related at all.

I haven't complained about Confederate statues coming down. The Auschwitz reference has to do with people who are victims of incredible tragedies deciding to keep the remnants of the place as a testimony of what occurred there. With all the "Holocaust didn't really happen" bs it seems to be a great idea.

There are processes to deal with all of this. Just going up and tearing them down isn't legal at all. Bringing it to a ballot initiative or some council to discuss is a great way to handle it. You can also deal with what to replace them with if you want. Just going and destroying public property doesn't work.

The example of Lincoln Emancipation, Frederick Douglass, John Brown, etc prove this movement either doesn't even care which ones they tear down, or they are absolutely ignorant to history in total.
 

Jostate

Bluecolla's sock
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Jun 24, 2005
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#42
So you are just uncomfortable because others might be uncomfortable? I’m not trying to be difficult, was just wanting to hear from someone who found it offensive.
I don't know about offensive but I can see how the black man on a knee in front of Lincoln isn't the best visual.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#43
OKC Bombing Memorial was defaced as well. It's another amazing memorial to something that happened. Truly horrific event that the memorial represents, but also a touching tribute to those that lost their lives.

Cleary it is a monument to white supremacy or something I guess.
 

verbal

Sheriff
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Mar 26, 2009
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#44
The question I was responding to had to do with Benedict Arnold getting a statue at West Point.

Hint: Not confederate related at all.

I haven't complained about Confederate statues coming down. The Auschwitz reference has to do with people who are victims of incredible tragedies deciding to keep the remnants of the place as a testimony of what occurred there. With all the "Holocaust didn't really happen" bs it seems to be a great idea.

There are processes to deal with all of this. Just going up and tearing them down isn't legal at all. Bringing it to a ballot initiative or some council to discuss is a great way to handle it. You can also deal with what to replace them with if you want. Just going and destroying public property doesn't work.

The example of Lincoln Emancipation, Frederick Douglass, John Brown, etc prove this movement either doesn't even care which ones they tear down, or they are absolutely ignorant to history in total.
So when you said

Tearing down monuments and memorials will do nothing to educate anyone further or change 1 detail of history. It is foolish as hell.
You didn't mean all, the way it could clearly be taken, I just wanted to verify that.
 
May 31, 2007
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#46
And many of the ones built before were still erected in a response to blacks seeking equality.

It is a start. Intent means a lot. College of Washington and Lee was named after Robert E. Lee when he died while serving as their president. It was named in his honor of his duties as school president. A statue of Lee being erected in response to civil rights is different. What the answer is I am not sure but it is worthy of discussion.
You say they were built for that reason but I doubt any of us really know why most of them were built in the first place. That’s why I ask if that should really be a factor in the first place if we can’t definitively say. Seems to me that the fate of all of these statues in public places should be determined by voters, city councils, school boards, etcetera and not angry mobs. And I’m not saying you agree or disagree with me. Just tossing in my $0.02.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#47
So when you said



You didn't mean all, the way it could clearly be taken, I just wanted to verify that.
I do mean all, but I refuse to defend the confederacy. The same thinking would apply, but I won't die on the hill of a confederate flag or statues of confederate generals. I don't think tearing them down is a great idea, but I like the idea of putting them in museums with explanations as to who they are and what they fought for.
 

Jostate

Bluecolla's sock
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Jun 24, 2005
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#48
Seems to me that the fate of all of these statues in public places should be determined by voters, city councils, school boards, etcetera and not angry mobs. .
Absolutely this. Just because you can find a bunch of knuckleheads that feel justified in tearing something down doesn't mean that's how it works.
 
May 31, 2007
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#49
I do mean all, but I refuse to defend the confederacy. The same thinking would apply, but I won't die on the hill of a confederate flag or statues of confederate generals. I don't think tearing them down is a great idea, but I like the idea of putting them in museums with explanations as to who they are and what they fought for.
I agree. I’ve always found the civil war and the characters associated with it fascinating and studied a lot about it several years ago. I’m glad i got to learn about when I did because I don’t think it will be taught the same way again.
 

verbal

Sheriff
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Mar 26, 2009
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#50
I agree. I’ve always found the civil war and the characters associated with it fascinating and studied a lot about it several years ago. I’m glad i got to learn about when I did because I don’t think it will be taught the same way again.
Hopefully it will be taught accurately.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#54
I hope so too, but I am skeptical. There seems to be, IMO, too much emotion surrounding it now for how it is taught not to be impacted.
History is easy to mine for whatever you want it to say. It's a much greater chore to try to truly understand the events and the people involved. One of the first things I was taught at OSU about studying history was to not take today's values and superimpose them on people from the past. Historical figures won't often live up to modern sensibilities or values. People tend to misunderstand history because of their own biases.

The key is to try and understand their world as best you can so you have a better chance at anything close to a value judgment. What were expectations for a person then? How did they live in regards to them? How did what they think or believe align with the times. Just like now, beliefs and expectations shift depending on many factors. It is complicated. Most "heroes" are villains and vice versa.

As for bias, you have to take into account who is speaking(assuming it is a written document), who is the audience intended, and who doesn't have a voice here?

History isn't sanitized nor safe from all the failings of the human condition.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#56
https://www.yahoo.com/news/thomas-jefferson-descendant-calls-memorial-to-be-removed-154313153.html

This article gets into this topic on Founding Fathers pretty well. I'm not in agreement with a whole lot of it, but it's at least thoughtful and with an eye toward actual progress. I don't know that replacing Jefferson with Tubman tells an anymore true story of America. Both represent important parts of American History. I wouldn't be for removing the Jefferson Memorial at all, but I am all for a Harriet Tubman statue.
 

Pokit N

Gent of Good Intent
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Sep 29, 2006
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#57
It's seems obvious to me that bringing down these monuments isn't about erasing or fixing racism...

It's about control. If you control the past you control the future.

In bourgeois society, therefore, the past dominates the present; in Communist society, the present dominates the past-Karl Marx
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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#59
No need to overanalyze. These are thugs and vandals, plain and simple.
I think that is a problem too. There are actually lots and lots of groups. Some have very noble causes seeking justice for those who have been mistreated. You have a bunch of others that have stepped in taking advantage of the demoralize police departments and moving the crime needle the wrong way.
 
May 31, 2007
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Edmond, OK
#60
History is easy to mine for whatever you want it to say. It's a much greater chore to try to truly understand the events and the people involved. One of the first things I was taught at OSU about studying history was to not take today's values and superimpose them on people from the past. Historical figures won't often live up to modern sensibilities or values. People tend to misunderstand history because of their own biases.

The key is to try and understand their world as best you can so you have a better chance at anything close to a value judgment. What were expectations for a person then? How did they live in regards to them? How did what they think or believe align with the times. Just like now, beliefs and expectations shift depending on many factors. It is complicated. Most "heroes" are villains and vice versa.

As for bias, you have to take into account who is speaking(assuming it is a written document), who is the audience intended, and who doesn't have a voice here?

History isn't sanitized nor safe from all the failings of the human condition.
Hear, hear!
https://www.yahoo.com/news/thomas-jefferson-descendant-calls-memorial-to-be-removed-154313153.html
This article gets into this topic on Founding Fathers pretty well. I'm not in agreement with a whole lot of it, but it's at least thoughtful and with an eye toward actual progress. I don't know that replacing Jefferson with Tubman tells an anymore true story of America. Both represent important parts of American History. I wouldn't be for removing the Jefferson Memorial at all, but I am all for a Harriet Tubman statue.
If the standard for our historical figures is perfection then none will be left to study. Harriet Tubman was probably a far better person than Thomas Jefferson, but Jefferson was far more impactful as far as the United States becoming and then surviving as a fledgling nation that would eventually become a super power.