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wrenhal

Federal Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
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It's yet another completely intellectually dishonest 'conversations' we're having.

It's also yet another area where my wife & I go "what the hell happened to our daughter?" She'd tell you that your post comes from a place of privilege!:sneaky:
You have one of the too? Have you been yelled at yet?
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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Stillwater
People not wanting to date a person of another race, is racist.
I'd be such a conundrum. I've adopted two black babies and have been their daddy for over 16yrs. Am I racist for playing the white savior, or am I racist for not doing more?

I'm guessing the answer would be a simple yes. I'm white, so I am racist
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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So lets leave up statues of Lenin, Stalin and Hitler right? I mean, people put them up! :derp:
Should we tear the Lenin statue in Seattle down? OR are you just ignorant that one does exist and that they still exist all over Russia? Stalin as well. Stalin did side with the allies to defeat hitler...not that it forgives his other actions, but that’s it with history it is not cut and dry, and white or black or red washing the truth does us little good and is actually a slap in the face of real history being learned in depth. Tearing down statues, in many cases, is the same type of action that put them up, just from the other side.
 

okstate987

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Should we tear the Lenin statue in Seattle down? OR are you just ignorant that one does exist and that they still exist all over Russia? Stalin as well. Stalin did side with the allies to defeat hitler...not that it forgives his other actions, but that’s it with history it is not cut and dry, and white or black or red washing the truth does us little good and is actually a slap in the face of real history being learned in depth. Tearing down statues, in many cases, is the same type of action that put them up, just from the other side.
I am aware of the Lenin statue in Seattle and am not opposed with anyone wanting to pull down statues of Lenin, Stalin and Hitler or any member of the confederacy, whether they are in the US or elsewhere.

You talk about history, but seem to not realize that the majority of statues being torn down were built between 1910 and 1960 in predominantly black areas of cities to harass and intimidate the population and remind them of slavery. The only history to be learned from them is that there were racist assholes in the 1900's too. We can learn about that in school, universities and museums, and don't need a public square dedicated to them in 2020.

As a Christian, how would you like a statue to satanism built in your neighborhood park? It would have pretty much the same intended effect.
 
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Sep 29, 2011
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“...... the majority of statues being torn down were built between 1910 and 1960 in predominantly black areas of cities to harass and intimidate the population and remind them of slavery”.

I’d like the source for this statement. I find it hard to believe in its entirety.


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Sep 29, 2011
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Breckenridge, CO
Should we tear the Lenin statue in Seattle down? OR are you just ignorant that one does exist and that they still exist all over Russia? Stalin as well. Stalin did side with the allies to defeat hitler...not that it forgives his other actions, but that’s it with history it is not cut and dry, and white or black or red washing the truth does us little good and is actually a slap in the face of real history being learned in depth. Tearing down statues, in many cases, is the same type of action that put them up, just from the other side.
I am aware of the Lenin statue in Seattle and am not opposed with anyone wanting to pull down statues of Lenin, Stalin and Hitler or any member of the confederacy, whether they are in the US or elsewhere.

You talk about history, but seem to not realize that the majority of statues being torn down were built between 1910 and 1960 in predominantly black areas of cities to harass and intimidate the population and remind them of slavery. The only history to be learned from them is that there were racist assholes in the 1900's too. We can learn about that in school, universities and museums, and don't need a public square dedicated to them in 2020.

As a Christian, how would you like a statue to satanism built in your neighborhood park? It would have pretty much the same intended effect.
You aren’t seriously trying to compare the countless public non-Christian symbols Christians tolerate daily with the relative few public displays of racism blacks have to tolerate daily?


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Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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I am aware of the Lenin statue in Seattle and am not opposed with anyone wanting to pull down statues of Lenin, Stalin and Hitler or any member of the confederacy, whether they are in the US or elsewhere.

You talk about history, but seem to not realize that the majority of statues being torn down were built between 1910 and 1960 in predominantly black areas of cities to harass and intimidate the population and remind them of slavery. The only history to be learned from them is that there were racist assholes in the 1900's too. We can learn about that in school, universities and museums, and don't need a public square dedicated to them in 2020.

As a Christian, how would you like a statue to satanism built in your neighborhood park? It would have pretty much the same intended effect.
First of all I don't believe for a second that when you initially posted your support for tearing down statues that you knew one existed and is tolerated, of Stalin, in the USA. And Yep, racist assholes exist of all races and colors and nationalities. Just as many per capita are POC as they are white. As an American, I have a right to worship whatever I want too. As a Christian I would be outraged with a satanist statue, (btw, they do exist in the USA). That outrage doesn't give me the right to tear it down, even though I see Satanist as an affront to everything decent in the world today. As a citizen of a society of laws I have ZERO right to deface anyone's or public property. I can work through the courts to attempt to change the laws but I cannot obstruct them and take them into my own hands...That's what's being done here...it is lawless acts of anarchy and immoral to tear down statues without attempting to bring them down through the legal channels. It would be if I did it, and it is here.

Oh, btw, when do we start tearing down the statues of Cesar in Rome and Eroupe? He had slaves of all colors and wasn't a great dude? When do we tear down those of Christ, because some disagree with some Christians actions and some blame them for the Crusades? Honestly, where does this end...once again, even those that were put up, in your mind, to keep people down....why not go through the city council, put a plaque beside the statue that explains that and why it was wrong? The slave markets in Charleston should be seen like the Holocausts memorials, not taken down. These things are history, to remove them removes our history and is an attempt to re-write it...certainly no sides of history are pure, and attempt to portray them as pure are false....tell the truth, the whole truth, and leave statues in place that show the truth of that time and explain why it was wrong by todays "truth." That truth will then attempt to be torn down at some future date and the cycle to attempt to preserve history will continue. If cities decide to remove their statues to museums so be it, if they leave them in place so be it. It's not your, or my, or anyone's decision except for the people of those communities and states...and certainly not those who don't go through legal channels.
 
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You aren’t seriously trying to compare the countless public non-Christian symbols Christians tolerate daily with the relative few public displays of racism blacks have to tolerate daily?


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Nice straw man. Non-Christian symbol =/= Symbols Offensive to Christians
I don’t even know what you’re trying to convey.

Our nation would be much more peaceful and united if everyone was as tolerant of different viewpoints/beliefs as Christians.


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wrenhal

Federal Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
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“...... the majority of statues being torn down were built between 1910 and 1960 in predominantly black areas of cities to harass and intimidate the population and remind them of slavery”.

I’d like the source for this statement. I find it hard to believe in its entirety.


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I agree. I would love to see an actual list of all the monuments and statues that have either been defaced torn down or taken down and when they were created and where they were located. It'd be interesting especially for all the monuments that actually had nothing to do with the Confederacy.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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I can see why some aren't crazy about it.
It shows the truth of the times...Whites had to rise up in the North to free blacks who were totally oppressed and enslaved. History isn't pretty, this is how it was, why not put a plaque beside it explaining that and the fact that it makes you feel uncomfortable is a good thing...it means what Lincoln did was successful...perhaps beyond his wildest dreams successful. We need to preserve and educate, not destroy and eradicate. This is what civilized societies do, they leave things in place and explain them in their historical frame of reference.
 
Sep 29, 2011
1,514
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Breckenridge, CO
“...... the majority of statues being torn down were built between 1910 and 1960 in predominantly black areas of cities to harass and intimidate the population and remind them of slavery”.

I’d like the source for this statement. I find it hard to believe in its entirety.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree. I would love to see an actual list of all the monuments and statues that have either been defaced torn down or taken down and when they were created and where they were located. It'd be interesting especially for all the monuments that actually had nothing to do with the Confederacy.
From the History Channel

“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s..........” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.

In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like............... “All of those monuments were there to teach values to people,” Elliott says. “That’s why they put them in the city squares. That’s why they put them in front of state buildings.” Many earlier memorials had instead been placed in cemeteries.


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bleedinorange

Federal Marshal
Jan 11, 2010
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In Pokey's head
I'd be such a conundrum. I've adopted two black babies and have been their daddy for over 16yrs. Am I racist for playing the white savior, or am I racist for not doing more?

I'm guessing the answer would be a simple yes. I'm white, so I am racist
Me too. I had a black foster son for six years. I'm betting 95% of all the "woke" multiculturists who cry racism every other breath have hardly ever had a black person in their home. If at all.
 

wrenhal

Federal Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
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From the History Channel

“Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s..........” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.

In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like............... “All of those monuments were there to teach values to people,” Elliott says. “That’s why they put them in the city squares. That’s why they put them in front of state buildings.” Many earlier memorials had instead been placed in cemeteries.


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Yeah that doesn't even begin to touch on the subject of the statues and monuments that are not Confederate related that are getting to faced and torn down.
 

Jostate

Bluecolla's sock
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It shows the truth of the times...Whites had to rise up in the North to free blacks who were totally oppressed and enslaved. History isn't pretty, this is how it was, why not put a plaque beside it explaining that and the fact that it makes you feel uncomfortable is a good thing...it means what Lincoln did was successful...perhaps beyond his wildest dreams successful. We need to preserve and educate, not destroy and eradicate. This is what civilized societies do, they leave things in place and explain them in their historical frame of reference.
I have no problem with this, but I'm prepared to defer some of these decisions to those more emotionally invested.
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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I have no problem with this, but I'm prepared to defer some of these decisions to those more emotionally invested.
As an American we are all emotionally invested. I had ancestor's who fought and died on both side of the civil war, on the side of freedom in the revolution, against fascisms in both World Wars, and a father who fought against communism in Vietnam...We, as Americans are INVESTED by the blood spilt by our ancestors who died for the freedom of slaves, AND the right to express ourselves as free people NOT to sit quietly on our hands and let...History distorting anti-American forces win the day and extinguish the great light of freedom to the world, which is the country our ancestors built, fought, and died for. You go ahead and sit on your hands, but I have an opinion and I'd say you should express yours...EVEN if it's opposed to mine. That's what America is about, it's the freedom to express our views and not have them trampled upon without due process of Law. Don't ever defer your freedom...the folks who gave it to you DIED For it.
 
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okstate987

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I don’t even know what you’re trying to convey.

Our nation would be much more peaceful and united if everyone was as tolerant of different viewpoints/beliefs as Christians.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
First of all I don't believe for a second that when you initially posted your support for tearing down statues that you knew one existed and is tolerated, of Stalin, in the USA. And Yep, racist assholes exist of all races and colors and nationalities. Just as many per capita are POC as they are white. As an American, I have a right to worship whatever I want too. As a Christian I would be outraged with a satanist statue, (btw, they do exist in the USA). That outrage doesn't give me the right to tear it down, even though I see Satanist as an affront to everything decent in the world today. As a citizen of a society of laws I have ZERO right to deface anyone's or public property. I can work through the courts to attempt to change the laws but I cannot obstruct them and take them into my own hands...That's what's being done here...it is lawless acts of anarchy and immoral to tear down statues without attempting to bring them down through the legal channels. It would be if I did it, and it is here.

Oh, btw, when do we start tearing down the statues of Cesar in Rome and Eroupe? He had slaves of all colors and wasn't a great dude? When do we tear down those of Christ, because some disagree with some Christians actions and some blame them for the Crusades? Honestly, where does this end...once again, even those that were put up, in your mind, to keep people down....why not go through the city council, put a plaque beside the statue that explains that and why it was wrong? The slave markets in Charleston should be seen like the Holocausts memorials, not taken down. These things are history, to remove them removes our history and is an attempt to re-write it...certainly no sides of history are pure, and attempt to portray them as pure are false....tell the truth, the whole truth, and leave statues in place that show the truth of that time and explain why it was wrong by todays "truth." That truth will then attempt to be torn down at some future date and the cycle to attempt to preserve history will continue. If cities decide to remove their statues to museums so be it, if they leave them in place so be it. It's not your, or my, or anyone's decision except for the people of those communities and states...and certainly not those who don't go through legal channels.
Go reread the thread, I have been aware of the statue, but also have not read about it's background.

How many countries set up monuments to generals of enemy countries, which were defeated and threatened their very existence? How many countries name some of their military bases after traitors? Why don't we have statues of King George III and Benedict Arnold up? Think about that. There has been an attempt to re-write history all right, and it was done by the daughters of the confederacy, who were able to amend school curriculum to paint the confederacy in a noble and positive light. They were also behind many of the statues themselves.

Your Caesar comments are a classic line drawing fallacy, the line drawing fallacy presents the alternatives as: Either there is a precise line to be drawn, or else there is no line to be drawn (no difference) between one end of the line and the other." It's bullshit.

The Germans pulled down their statues of Hitler after the war (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/germany-has-no-nazi-memorials/597937/). Have you ever wondered why they don't have any anymore? The confederate statues and monuments were set up to glorify the movement and its leaders, while intimidating black populations. Germany did not get rid of its memory of the holocaust, but did get rid of things that glorified that regime. I am not opposed to putting the statues in museums, or if people want to purchase them for their private collection, but they have no place in our public spaces. I agree keeping the slave markets is a good idea for educational purposes similar to concentration camp sites.
 
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