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Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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Go reread the thread, I have been aware of the statue, but also have not read about it's background.

How many countries set up monuments to generals of enemy countries, which were defeated and threatened their very existence? How many countries name some of their military bases after traitors? Why don't we have statues of King George III and Benedict Arnold up? Think about that. There has been an attempt to re-write history all right, and it was done by the daughters of the confederacy, who were able to amend school curriculum to paint the confederacy in a noble and positive light. They were also behind many of the statues themselves.

Your Caesar comments are a classic line drawing fallacy, the line drawing fallacy presents the alternatives as: Either there is a precise line to be drawn, or else there is no line to be drawn (no difference) between one end of the line and the other." It's bullshit.

The Germans pulled down their statues of Hitler after the war (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/germany-has-no-nazi-memorials/597937/). Have you ever wondered why they don't have any anymore? The confederate statues and monuments were set up to glorify the movement and its leaders, while intimidating black populations. Germany did not get rid of its memory of the holocaust, but did get rid of things that glorified that regime. I am not opposed to putting the statues in museums, or if people want to purchase them for their private collection, but they have no place in our public spaces. I agree keeping the slave markets is a good idea for educational purposes similar to concentration camp sites.
Ok on the first part, I haven't read the entire thread.

for the second question...France for one, as you can find tributes and statues of all their past Kings and leaders on all sides (Versailles is perhaps their most "proud" monument as a nation and it's too the king they beheaded), both pre and post their bloody awful horrible revolution...Even, IMHO, some of the most creepy men in history, even Robespierre and to much glamor Napoleon are lorded over and enshrined. Plus many others in FREEDOM loving nations mostly in Eroupe...In civil conflicts among brothers of the same nation you see this all the time in many instances. We currently seem to be in a revenge on the south mantra and they are our brothers...brothers who made the awful mistake of rationalizing the enslavement of others for their own quality of life, but still brothers and countrymen. In doing that we are creating a new mindset of intolerance that says, if you make a mistake or disagree you are no longer my brother and aren't going to be forgiven...even the one sin we died to help you overcome, we can no longer forgive you for...Make no mistake, the war was to preserve the union of brotherhood not to end it...we succeeded in doing that and America became the most powerful freedom loving place on the planet as a result...so much so that we forgave our brothers sins and even allowed him the freedom to honor his dead hero's. IMHO, that is a National strength not a weakness. Forgiveness and freedom is our strength...All that said, these communities will hopefully use the legal process and votes to determine the fate of statues...my main concern is intolerance, on any side when it rears it's ugly head...
 
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okstate987

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France for one, as you can find tributes and statues of all their past Kings and leaders on all sides...and many others in FREEDOM loving nations mostly in Eroupe...In civil conflicts among brothers of the same nation you see this all the time in many instances. We currently seem to be in a revenge on the south mantra and they are our brothers...brothers who made the awful mistake of rationalizing the enslavement of others for their own quality of life, but still brothers and countrymen. In doing what we are creating a mindset of intolerance that says, if you make a mistake or disagree you are no longer my brother and aren't going to be forgiven...even the one sin we died to help you overcome, we can no longer forgive you for...Make no mistake, the war was to preserve the union of brotherhood not to end it...we succeeded in doing that and America became the most powerful freedom loving place on the planet as a result...so much so that we forgave our brothers sins and even allowed him the freedom to honor his dead hero's. IMHO, that is a National strength not a weakness. Forgiveness and freedom is our strength...national it was shown by allowing freedom to happen.
So somehow removing statues equates to "revenge on the south" and "lack of forgiveness"? That is a crazy anount of delusion. Foregiveness =/= glorifying leaders who championed slavery and little else in a failed revolt.

Its a crazy amount of delusion, but then I remember you were on here being a Baylor and Art Briles apologist when that news broke and have tried doing somilar things with downplaying COVID.
 

Jostate

Bluecolla's sock
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As an American we are all emotionally invested. I had ancestor's who fought and died on both side of the civil war, on the side of freedom in the revolution, against fascisms in both World Wars, and a father who fought against communism in Vietnam...We, as Americans are INVESTED by the blood spilt by our ancestors who died for the freedom of slaves, AND the right to express ourselves as free people NOT to sit quietly on our hands and let...History distorting anti-American forces win the day and extinguish the great light of freedom to the world, which is the country our ancestors built, fought, and died for. You go ahead and sit on your hands, but I have an opinion and I'd say you should express yours...EVEN if it's opposed to mine. That's what America is about, it's the freedom to express our views and not have them trampled upon without due process of Law. Don't ever defer your freedom...the folks who gave it to you DIED For it.
I'm full of opinions about most things American. This particular statue I see both sides, so I can let others fight this one out, as long as it's done by rule of law and not a bunch of morons who think Lincoln fought the Zombies.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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So somehow removing statues equates to "revenge on the south" and "lack of forgiveness"? That is a crazy anount of delusion. Foregiveness =/= glorifying leaders who championed slavery and little else in a failed revolt.

Its a crazy amount of delusion, but then I remember you were on here being a Baylor and Art Briles apologist when that news broke and have tried doing somilar things with downplaying COVID.
I have no problem with statues being removed or names of buildings being changed ... when a jurisdiction has a discussion and makes those decisions. I don’t at all support mob justice that tears down statues. Do you support that?
 

Rack

Legendary Cowboy
Oct 13, 2004
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So somehow removing statues equates to "revenge on the south" and "lack of forgiveness"? That is a crazy anount of delusion. Foregiveness =/= glorifying leaders who championed slavery and little else in a failed revolt.

Its a crazy amount of delusion, but then I remember you were on here being a Baylor and Art Briles apologist when that news broke and have tried doing somilar things with downplaying COVID.
Tearing down statues without due course and process in the courts is not the right way to do things, it's also criminal...that's all I'm saying. As far as Briles I never was an apologist for that man, especially after things came out...go back and look. However, I still do think Baylor is a great school, have many family members and friends who went there..my city councilman who I have great respect for went to Baylor.... but I hate their sports teams as much as the next OSU fan. Regarding Covid, I have indeed been pretty adamant in my freedom loving stance that we shouldn't let it run our lives...I've been on the side of wearing mask in crowds and not attending events that we don't feel safe in doing. I'm also on the side of opening business and even safely traveling despite the pandemic, btw Disney World just opened and their Democrat Mayor is cheering them on. I bet you agree with some of that. My biggest problem is with canceling regular life due to the virus, because I think we can do events safely (i.e. wear mask and distance when you can) and have an obligation to try...I don't know if it's worse than past pandemics or not, but it does seem to have a political element to it that seems to be canceling things to slow the economy using it as an excuse...I bet you even agree somewhat or in some form with SOME of that as well? No?
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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.sad...trying to find common ground seems pointless these days. :(
No one truly cares for discourse. It's agree with me or you are evil and must be silenced. I hope the left enjoys it cause if the pendulum ever swings away they might not like it.

In fact, look at the lefties that have been hit by cancel culture. They cry and whine and blame the right. lmao.
 
Nov 6, 2010
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ux1dKNPXo



Discussion starts by talking about deplatforming issue that is super broad right now.
You know, everyone rails against the media for various reasons, but watching these JRE podcasts really brings the issue into focus for me. The problem with our news media isn't bias, political correctness, or whatever we seem to attribute to it. The problem is brevity. At best on Fox or CNN, an idea or debate gets 2 or 3 minutes of airtime before cutting to an advertisement about beer or viagra, where these podcasts are 3 hours of uninterrupted discussion. Twitter is what, 280 characters?? That is hardly enough space to form a paragraph, much less explore a topic in any depth. We've even come up with an internet acronym for it, TLDR.

Thanks for posting links to these podcasts, because I forget they're out there. The one between Jordan Peterson and Bret Weinstein was pretty meandering, but it should serve as an example of how rational discourse can be had between people from the perceived left and right should be had without devolving into whatever we see on facebook and OP.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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You know, everyone rails against the media for various reasons, but watching these JRE podcasts really brings the issue into focus for me. The problem with our news media isn't bias, political correctness, or whatever we seem to attribute to it. The problem is brevity. At best on Fox or CNN, an idea or debate gets 2 or 3 minutes of airtime before cutting to an advertisement about beer or viagra, where these podcasts are 3 hours of uninterrupted discussion. Twitter is what, 280 characters?? That is hardly enough space to form a paragraph, much less explore a topic in any depth. We've even come up with an internet acronym for it, TLDR.

Thanks for posting links to these podcasts, because I forget they're out there. The one between Jordan Peterson and Bret Weinstein was pretty meandering, but it should serve as an example of how rational discourse can be had between people from the perceived left and right should be had without devolving into whatever we see on facebook and OP.
I absolutely agree. I believe we have been formatted out of real discourse. The "debates" on those shows on CNN or Fox are rarely worthwhile let alone if they were longer. Research steadily shows a decreasing attention span. As a guy whose had a hard time with focusing my whole life, I find this very much frightening.

I teach history, and I firmly believe that learning history legitimately requires time. Time to read multiple sources and to investigate multiple points of view in order to reach some idea of the events that predate us. It's hard to grasp the meaning of events through a soundbyte or image alone. You need contest, and having multiple perspectives will open your eyes to issues not necessarily put forth or treated by a main source. It's work, and it is fascinating to get into, but it is so hard for a young mind to focus on. It won't lead to greater income. They don't value understanding things to grow their appreciation and comprehension of the world they live in.

Competing with Tik Tok, Snapchat, the trading of nudes, and whatever drama is going on around them is next to impossible. The French Revolution, hell the American Revolution, is just some event that has no real implications on them now. They have been groomed to be entertained at all times. History can be very entertaining, awe inspiring, horrifying, and mysterious, but it requires more than a minute. Youtubers try to keep videos under 10mins regardless of content cause people won't watch it.

I very much value discourse and exchanging ideas and perspectives with others. I think there so much to be gained by way of understanding, empathy, and awareness that way. I can't know what it is to be a woman or a minority. I was raised by a single mom, I have 3 sisters, I am married with 3 daughter(2 adopted black girls), and I can only speak on their experiences as a witness to them.

Discourse must be handled with respect. You can watch great debates between intellectuals on the existence of God or whatever topic, and you will find that they are full of pithy jokes but heavy in respect. NO ONE wants to be preached at or lectured when their own thoughts are not respected or valued. I have posted on Facebook about people dismissing lifelong friends from their conversations because they don't fall in line with someone's point of view. I saw this when two former students of mine were talking. One was asserting the BLM line and the other was asking questions. The BLM fan dismissed him outright. He wasn't being disrespectful. He did ASK about why all lives matter was offensive, but instead of educating him and talking she dismissed him totally. That won't win you any allies, and it does nothing to forward the conversation.

People are not real good at recognizing the difference between making a point(whatever the topic) and being an asshole. The agree with me or you are the problem attitude is part and parcel to lack of attention span. No one wants to put in the real effort and time. They want your agreement or they don't want you. They don't want to have to earn your agreement because it takes energy.

I'm rambling(clearly another problem in my history classes lol).
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
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Seattle...working on a 50% cut of the police budget. The guy in this video used to be a cop in Arizona, btw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpDvexVH7YI
 
Nov 6, 2010
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I absolutely agree. I believe we have been formatted out of real discourse. The "debates" on those shows on CNN or Fox are rarely worthwhile let alone if they were longer. Research steadily shows a decreasing attention span. As a guy whose had a hard time with focusing my whole life, I find this very much frightening.

I teach history, and I firmly believe that learning history legitimately requires time. Time to read multiple sources and to investigate multiple points of view in order to reach some idea of the events that predate us. It's hard to grasp the meaning of events through a soundbyte or image alone. You need contest, and having multiple perspectives will open your eyes to issues not necessarily put forth or treated by a main source. It's work, and it is fascinating to get into, but it is so hard for a young mind to focus on. It won't lead to greater income. They don't value understanding things to grow their appreciation and comprehension of the world they live in.

Competing with Tik Tok, Snapchat, the trading of nudes, and whatever drama is going on around them is next to impossible. The French Revolution, hell the American Revolution, is just some event that has no real implications on them now. They have been groomed to be entertained at all times. History can be very entertaining, awe inspiring, horrifying, and mysterious, but it requires more than a minute. Youtubers try to keep videos under 10mins regardless of content cause people won't watch it.

I very much value discourse and exchanging ideas and perspectives with others. I think there so much to be gained by way of understanding, empathy, and awareness that way. I can't know what it is to be a woman or a minority. I was raised by a single mom, I have 3 sisters, I am married with 3 daughter(2 adopted black girls), and I can only speak on their experiences as a witness to them.

Discourse must be handled with respect. You can watch great debates between intellectuals on the existence of God or whatever topic, and you will find that they are full of pithy jokes but heavy in respect. NO ONE wants to be preached at or lectured when their own thoughts are not respected or valued. I have posted on Facebook about people dismissing lifelong friends from their conversations because they don't fall in line with someone's point of view. I saw this when two former students of mine were talking. One was asserting the BLM line and the other was asking questions. The BLM fan dismissed him outright. He wasn't being disrespectful. He did ASK about why all lives matter was offensive, but instead of educating him and talking she dismissed him totally. That won't win you any allies, and it does nothing to forward the conversation.

People are not real good at recognizing the difference between making a point(whatever the topic) and being an asshole. The agree with me or you are the problem attitude is part and parcel to lack of attention span. No one wants to put in the real effort and time. They want your agreement or they don't want you. They don't want to have to earn your agreement because it takes energy.

I'm rambling(clearly another problem in my history classes lol).
Excellent points, but I'll challenge you a bit. Do you think distractions to higher learning for young kids are a recent phenomenon? I disagree, I feel the more recent and more corrosive problem lies with adults. The adults, those of us who are supposed to be in charge of things, are the ones who have relinquished our responsibility to really engage in dialogue and thought, and I believe we've been conditioned to do so. Even if you go back 75 years prior to television. Newspapers were bastions of information, but still beholden to the amount of space the written characters could be afforded without interfering with the ads. Just think of the difference in depth of a newspaper article vs a book on the same subject. I've considered myself well read by the fact that I consume a wide variety of articles, but it is apparent I'm not well read, because of the mandatory brevity of those articles, however well written.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
32,471
13,991
1,743
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Stillwater
Excellent points, but I'll challenge you a bit. Do you think distractions to higher learning for young kids are a recent phenomenon? I disagree, I feel the more recent and more corrosive problem lies with adults. The adults, those of us who are supposed to be in charge of things, are the ones who have relinquished our responsibility to really engage in dialogue and thought, and I believe we've been conditioned to do so. Even if you go back 75 years prior to television. Newspapers were bastions of information, but still beholden to the amount of space the written characters could be afforded without interfering with the ads. Just think of the difference in depth of a newspaper article vs a book on the same subject. I've considered myself well read by the fact that I consume a wide variety of articles, but it is apparent I'm not well read, because of the mandatory brevity of those articles, however well written.
You aren't wrong. In the school system it is VERY hard to fail a kid. Let that sink in. If they CANNOT fail, do they ever really succeed? How? How are they taught responsibility or ownership of their own advocacy?

As a kid, I was probably more interested in history than the average kid, but back then there was a thing called homework. We had LONG class discussions about topics and debates about things like abortion.

75yrs ago, you weren't inundated by calamity at all hours of the day. Nowadays things move much more rapidly from one thing to the next with zero time afforded for digestion and understanding. Just this year we have gone from crisis to crisis to crisis, and there is never any time afforded for analysis or figuring out what it all means before we are onto the next big thing. It's like we are all trained to be traumatized all the time, and like a trauma victim we live in a state of shock. The rapid fire nature of everything affords less and less time for any discourse or thought. Thought is the key to the whole thing.

Ben Franklin was brilliant, we know, but he had time to think about the world and digest what was what for himself. He was creative, as he had time and money to be, and had an enormous impact. I would venture to say that there is more info put out daily now than he could have hoped to see in a year of his life. I think we are pushing people intentionally to create a constant state of fight or flight. The tribalism is a good example. So is identity politics. it's easy to say "this is you" and these people here "hate" you and you must "hate" them back. No reason or discussion allowed. Hell, it isn't necessary. How do we talk to someone that calls us racist every time we disagree with an agenda? How? You literally just labeled me evil. How are we supposed to have a dialogue?

For kids, they are stuck with what they are told is true, and they will naturally move to the path of least resistance. Everything has been made push button easy for access. This also seems to effect the level of respect one holds for a thing.

I do think adults have abdicated true education to ease of access and reduced so much of it to bits of information. Kids are simply a reflection of that, but there are other issues involving community and parents. Schools are treated as an adversary that is doing things to the kids. Kids whose parents are involved stand out academically almost universally, but those who don't usually don't. There are exceptions both ways, but it even holds true for special needs kids.
 

okstate987

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You know, everyone rails against the media for various reasons, but watching these JRE podcasts really brings the issue into focus for me. The problem with our news media isn't bias, political correctness, or whatever we seem to attribute to it. The problem is brevity. At best on Fox or CNN, an idea or debate gets 2 or 3 minutes of airtime before cutting to an advertisement about beer or viagra, where these podcasts are 3 hours of uninterrupted discussion. Twitter is what, 280 characters?? That is hardly enough space to form a paragraph, much less explore a topic in any depth. We've even come up with an internet acronym for it, TLDR.

Thanks for posting links to these podcasts, because I forget they're out there. The one between Jordan Peterson and Bret Weinstein was pretty meandering, but it should serve as an example of how rational discourse can be had between people from the perceived left and right should be had without devolving into whatever we see on facebook and OP.
That is because Jordan Peterson and Bret Weinstein are intellectuals and both value free speech. I would add Sam Harris to the list of someone who can have a good discussion, in fact Bret Weinstein was the moderator of the debate between Peterson and Harris. All have had great episodes on JRE too.