Big 12 Realignment thread, 2021 version

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What conference would you like to see OSU join?

  • ACC

  • Big Ten

  • PAC-12

  • Expanded Big 12

  • Other (please explain)


Results are only viewable after voting.

llcoolw

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How would the "amateur" division exist without nullifying NIL, somehow?
Schools like Rice and UConn were already loaded with kids that just wanted to play. Not to mention the other divisions. College ball already has separated itself by class. And by power. Soon it’ll add a perception that the players are being paid to play. When Alabama plays Central Michigan again, the fans will see that even a point spread won’t make it interesting. Nor fair, like it really was to begin with, but with the force that only money can buy, it will become physically dangerous and folks will see it’s just not worth having these ritual sacrifices anymore.

I think it will self segregate. A semi pro league for maybe the top 50-75 teams. Maybe go ahead and let SEC and BIG and whomever else run it. Allow the NCAA to go back to it’s original mission and oversee the amateur divisions.

Maybe a salary cap determines which league the school goes to?




And then I reread all of this and think, the whole idea of college ball from pre year 2000, is not only dead but forgotten.
 
May 4, 2011
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Several years ago I asked President Hargis that question in an email. Never expected a response, but got one within 48 hours. He said that it isn't that they aren't striving for those memberships or higher USNWR rankings (which he somewhat dismissed as BS), he said that with OSU's mission as part of their land grant they must first be concerned with providing opportunities for Oklahoma students to receive an education that is targeted to the needs of Oklahomans, and that sometimes that mission isn't in line with what AAU values. I took this to mean that the large amount of AG research that is necessary for our school was not in line with the research AAU figures into their membership evaluations.
It's also really, really hard. Everyone wants to expand the research portfolio and chase the associated prestige. The non research part that kills OSU and was part of why Nebraska got kicked out is the graduation rate. That's really hard to improve when you stick to your land grant mission and try to intentionally avoid selectivity.
 

llcoolw

Territorial Marshal
Feb 7, 2005
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Just clarifying: I don’t hate them over this move. It was the right decision for them. I hated them way before this. With a passion. I have two favorite teams, OSU and whomever is playing ou. Any sport. You guys can be sensitive fools, I don’t care. They suck. Their leadership sucks, their fans suck. Their campus sucks. **** em.

If that bothers you, I know everything about you I need to know. You probably routinely brought one of those aholes to every Bedlam game in Stillwater and said crap like “it’s my ticket I’ll do whatever I want.”

And that’s why we’re little brother. You dorks most likely got beat up in school by the bully too. Or you’re the battered spouse that keeps saying you ‘fell down the stairs’ or ‘he didn’t really mean it this time.’

You clowns probably still want to keep playing them too after this because your gluttons with zero self respect. Losers.

And this is not directed at any one person(s) on this board. Notice, no quotes. Just clarifying my personal position and where those “fans” land with me. Wish more OSU fans felt the same but most of the older ones say dumb crap like “I root for ou when we’re not playing them.”

Get bent.
Does it make you feel better that I flip off Norman when driving through? Or that the only red item in my home is the vacuum, only because it sucks? Or that I literally hate nothing on this rock except all that is, Looner football? Or that I married one and now her closet is filled with the brightest orange?
 
Sep 12, 2013
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Interesting quote by Del Conte when he was TCU's AD.

"We've never been more resolute and more united as a group,"

Why 2023 is the next big date in conference shuffling (espn.com)


Television contracts
ACC - 35/36
AAC - 31/32, no GOR
B1G - 22/23
Big XII - 24/25
PAC12 - 23/24
SEC - ESPN: 33/34, CBS: 22/23


Notre Dame will remain independent as long as it can schedule football games. They have a contract with the ACC for 5 games a year through 35/36.

The next move is the B1G's to make. They aren't taking anyone that isn't AAU. They could take 6 from the PAC12 when their GOR expires, so no worries about any buyouts. That would put them at 20.

Does ESPN bust the ACC's GOR to get Clemson, FSU/Miami, etc. to try and also get to 20?

B1G says, thanks for busting the GOR, we'll take Duke, UNC, UVa, and GT for a 24 team conference.

The SEC and the B1G will be the two conferences driving CFB's entry level professional league. If they go to 24 teams apiece, we have a tiny shot at the SEC.

I would be very surprised if anyone in the leftover 8 gets an invite to any P4 conference. There is a higher chance we (OSU) would see an invite if the realignment carousel stopped here. Our best bet is to stick together as long as we can and see what the SEC and B1G do. Some big moves (e.g. USC to the B1G) should happen before our GOR expires. Then we should try and form a new conference with other like minded left behinds. We could add AAC schools with no buyouts. I would think our 8 schools with additions of some of the top AAC schools would earn more than than the AAC's $7-9 million per school.

At this point, I think all eyes are on the B1G.
 

CowboyHoopsPride

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Feb 18, 2009
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Here's what should happen. It won't because it takes a level of cajones and cooperation that would never occur but if I was the tyrant dictator, here's what would go down.
  1. First and foremost the remaining 8 schools commit to staying together through the 2024-25 seasons.
    1. Forces those who shall not be named to both payout $77 million.
      1. ou does not have the money
      2. texas does but that is a huge number and they will feel it
    2. Retains the media rights for all sports to both said schools for:
      1. 2022
      2. 2023
      3. 2024
    3. This affectively becomes a half billion dollar penalty for their actions
      1. neither school or athletic program can absorb this and it will severely penalize them
      2. They will recover but they won't be the same for years
    4. We're all getting paid on top of what we would already be getting so for three more years, money is a non issue and we're not scrambling to find the best of a bad situation.
      1. None of the remaining 8 are getting in the CFP anyway.
      2. Other leagues will make big pronunciations against it but behind closed doors would be applauding sticking it to ou and texas and the SEC.
  2. None of the 8 schools play them in anything this year.
    1. Wait until teams have traveled to the intended away game site and then site covid protocols.
      1. There is nothing that can be done by them at this point. Covid is king and that was proven last year when teams didn't play that could have.
      2. Leading up to every game you say you're playing and then right after warmups, whoops covid positive, can't play.
      3. Don't spent any money going to Norman or Austin, cite covid prior to traveling.
        1. Both municipalities will feel the economic impact of zero college sports in their locations for a year.
        2. This makes the ultimate penalty even bigger for their actions and their douche bag fans can feel some of it
    2. Keeps both out of any contention for anything because they won't have enough games played in any sport. Not possible to reschedule with zero notice
    3. Removes additional revenue from this year as they don't play any home games
    4. TV networks get screwed and have to scramble to fill spots they thought they had UT and ou slated for.
      1. Keeps both of them off TV outside of non conference for the entire year.
  3. Never play bedlam again. In any sport. I hope this happens regardless of my god king scenarios but this is a must.
Again, would never happen but if I had the magic wand, that's how this would go down. Scorched earth!

(edit: I hope you laughed before smashing the reply button.)
 

CowboyHoopsPride

Territorial Marshal
Feb 18, 2009
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Does it make you feel better that I flip off Norman when driving through? Or that the only red item in my home is the vacuum, only because it sucks? Or that I literally hate nothing on this rock except all that is, Looner football? Or that I married one and now her closet is filled with the brightest orange?
Love everything about it. I also do not own anything red. I skipped a family members wedding because it was held in satan's taint. I too am not a hateful person save one program and everything associated with it. Everything.:D
 

Birry

Federal Marshal
Feb 6, 2007
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Schools like Rice and UConn were already loaded with kids that just wanted to play. Not to mention the other divisions. College ball already has separated itself by class. And by power. Soon it’ll add a perception that the players are being paid to play. When Alabama plays Central Michigan again, the fans will see that even a point spread won’t make it interesting. Nor fair, like it really was to begin with, but with the force that only money can buy, it will become physically dangerous and folks will see it’s just not worth having these ritual sacrifices anymore.

I think it will self segregate. A semi pro league for maybe the top 50-75 teams. Maybe go ahead and let SEC and BIG and whomever else run it. Allow the NCAA to go back to it’s original mission and oversee the amateur divisions.

Maybe a salary cap determines which league the school goes to?




And then I reread all of this and think, the whole idea of college ball from pre year 2000, is not only dead but forgotten.
I don't disagree that it'll self-segregate. But I also don't think that an amateur division could officially exist given the presence of NIL.

As weird as it seems, I think the absolute best case is some sort of relegation system that can behave more as a spectrum as opposed to a binary semi-pro vs amateur.

Realistically, what we're headed towards is whatever system is the most profitable for ESPN and the remaining 60-80 or so universities fighting for whatever scraps fall on the floor. In practice, I see the outsiders basically functioning as a farm system for the big leagues with players transferring to the more powerful/wealthy organizations ASAP. Who knows on tv rights...? I guess Fox and non-Disney companies get whatever is leftover.

At this point, I think this borders on some kind of anti-trust action against Disney given the massive consequences for educational, athletic, and financial dealings of universities across the country, all so ESPN can profit.
 
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OSU125

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Sep 2, 2014
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It's also really, really hard. Everyone wants to expand the research portfolio and chase the associated prestige. The non research part that kills OSU and was part of why Nebraska got kicked out is the graduation rate. That's really hard to improve when you stick to your land grant mission and try to intentionally avoid selectivity.
Yeah, he mentioned that too.
 
Aug 16, 2008
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Several years ago I asked President Hargis that question in an email. Never expected a response, but got one within 48 hours. He said that it isn't that they aren't striving for those memberships or higher USNWR rankings (which he somewhat dismissed as BS), he said that with OSU's mission as part of their land grant they must first be concerned with providing opportunities for Oklahoma students to receive an education that is targeted to the needs of Oklahomans, and that sometimes that mission isn't in line with what AAU values. I took this to mean that the large amount of AG research that is necessary for our school was not in line with the research AAU figures into their membership evaluations.
Well, I can answer a part of your question. Although, you might already know the answer.

The USNWR rankings, IMO, are bogus also. Here’s just 1 reason why: your academic reputation is taken into consideration. You will find that to always be the case in most all college academic rankings. Who votes on academic reputation? Professors, etc.

So, if you’re now considered a 3rd rate school and Harvard a 1st rate school - guess what - nothing is EVER going to change on those rankings.

Secondly, those rankings of quality of school is heavily influenced by the SAT & ACT rankings of incoming students. The smarter the students coming into a school, the higher the academic reputation and status of that school will be rated. It’s like, as I read one expert say one time - it’s like ranking hospitals effectiveness on how healthy their incoming patients are.

OSU , and OU, are primarily schools for the general, average, Oklahoma High school student that wishes a higher education. Period. Plainly put.

So OSU and OU are going to admit the average ACT & SAT school students. Therefore, we WILL ALWAYS have an average ACT range (middle 50%) of around 23-28. Give or take 1 point. The Average ACT Range (middle 50% of incoming students) at “elite” high ranking schools are more like between 29-33. Notre Dame is between 31-35. Which means only 25% of their students scored below 31 on the ACT and 25% of their students scored 35 or 36 (highest possible) on the ACT.

Therefore, OKlahoma legislature does not want to fund a NOtre DAme type school along with an OU and OSU. Therefore, OU and OSU MUST admit more average students. Which means this in rankings: WE’re always going to be a considered inferior school because our students aren’t so high scoring on ACT/SAT.

U. of Michigan is highly rated and it’s a public school. They are MUCH HARDER to get into than an OU or OSU. Therefore, MIchigan has elite status and is considered academically superior. THerefore, it’s easier for them to get Research $$ money and are, therefore, in the AAU.

The only way OSU can get into the AAU is to stop admitting about 1/2 of their students (lowest scores on the ACT) and then hire a bunch of famous research scholars to do research, then go apply for research $$ and get a bunch of money. THEN, and ONLY THEN - will we get considered for AAU status.

The Oklahoma legislature can not afford to fund OSU or OU and start another school (or say just UCO). NOt enough $$. OUr taxes would have to sky-rocket.

And guess what is in USNWR rankings? The AMOUNT of Research Dollars received. Theoretically you are a better school if you get more Research $$. That will be one of their criteria.

IN summary - to get “status”, higher USN&WR rankings, & AAU membership we would need to do this:
1. LImit incoming students to only those making above 26 to 28 on ACT.
2. Fire a bunch of professors because # of students enrolled would plummett.
3. Go hire new faculty anyway, because we need “name” research scholars who DO NOT TEACH MUCH - in order to get research $$ because we’re having ot compete against other schools for said research $$.
4. Wait about 15 to 30 years for research to pay-off at OSU so that the AAU would be tempted to invite us in to their exclusive club.
5. Result: You’ll have to Pay about 3 to 6 times more in STate taxes than you’re paying now in order to pay for all this and to go hire all those fired professors to teach at UCO - which would then grow to about U.Houston size of 50,000 Undergrads. And, of course, go pay for the buildings and dorm rooms needed to go with all those students down at UCO.

That’s what Burns HArgis meant about our “role” in Oklahoma.
 
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May 4, 2011
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Charleston, SC
Well, I can answer a part of your question. Although, you might already know the answer.

The USNWR rankings, IMO, are bogus also. Here’s just 1 reason why: your academic reputation is taken into consideration. You will find that to always be the case in most all college academic rankings. Who votes on academic reputation? Professors, etc.

So, if you’re now considered a 3rd rate school and Harvard a 1st rate school - guess what - nothing is EVER going to change on those rankings.

Secondly, those rankings of quality of school is heavily influenced by the SAT & ACT rankings of incoming students. The smarter the students coming into a school, the higher the academic reputation and status of that school will be rated. It’s like, as I read one expert say one time - it’s like ranking hospitals effectiveness on how healthy their incoming patients are.

OSU , and OU, are primarily schools for the general, average, Oklahoma High school student that wishes a higher education. Period. Plainly put.

So OSU and OU are going to admit the average ACT & SAT school students. Therefore, we WILL ALWAYS have an average ACT range (middle 50%) of around 23-28. Give or take 1 point. The Average ACT Range (middle 50% of incoming students) at “elite” high ranking schools are more like between 29-33. Notre Dame is between 31-35. Which means only 25% of their students scored below 31 on the ACT and 25% of their students scored 35 or 36 (highest possible) on the ACT.

Therefore, OKlahoma legislature does not want to fund a NOtre DAme type school along with an OU and OSU. Therefore, OU and OSU MUST admit more average students. Which means this in rankings: WE’re always going to be insidered inferior.

U. of Michigan is highly rated and it’s a public school. They are MUCH HARDER to get into than an OU or OSU. Therefore, MIchigan has elite status and is considered academically superior. THerefore, it’s easier for them to get Research $$ money and are, therefore, in the AAU.

The only way OSU can get into the AAU is to stop admitting about 1/2 of their students (lowest scores on the ACT) and then hire a bunch of famous research scholars to do research, then go apply for research $$ and get a bunch of money. THEN, and ONLY THEN - will we get considered for AAU status.

The Oklahoma legislature can not afford to fund OSU or OU and start another school (or say just UCO). NOt enough $$. OUr taxes would have to sky-rocket.

And guess what is in USNWR rankings? Research Dollars received will be one of their criteria.

IN summary - to get “status”, higher USN&WR rankings, & AAU membership we would need to do this:
1. LImit incoming students to only those making above 26 to 28 on ACTh.
2. Fire a bunch of professors because # of students enrolled would plummett.
3. Go hire new faculty anyway, because we need “name” research scholars who DO NOT TEACH MUCH - to get research $$.
4. Wait about 15 to 30 years for research to pay-off at OSU so that the AAU would invite us in.
5. Pay about 3 times in taxes you’re paying now in order to pay for this and to go hire all those fired professors to teach at UCO - which would then grow to about U.Houston size of 50,000 Undergrads. And pay for the buildings and dorm rooms.

That’s what Burns HArgis meant about our “role” in Oklahoma.
The primary factor in USNWP rankings is prestige ranking by peers. Malcom Gladwell did a pretty good podcast episode explaining how their rankings are garbage. They are utterly meaningless. So much so that I've worked with top 50 and top 25 programs that refuse to advertise it.
 
Aug 16, 2008
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The primary factor in USNWP rankings is prestige ranking by peers. Malcom Gladwell did a pretty good podcast episode explaining how their rankings are garbage. They are utterly meaningless. So much so that I've worked with top 50 and top 25 programs that refuse to advertise it.
Then I’d guess you agree with my statement that it’s like ranking the best hospitals on how healthy and well their incoming patients are.

(Again - wasn’t my analogy but someone else’s - but I thought the analogy hit the proverbial nail on the head.)
 
Nov 25, 2009
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I hope OU and Texas never make the playoffs ever again once they move to the SEC. The 'rest' of the teams need to adjust the playoffs to be JUST the conference champions. That's cool you guys have the biggest budgets but the 'rest of us' have strength in numbers. Sorry boutya OU and Texas.
Texas can't win even if they bring in the BIG12 refs into the SEC with them.
 

OSU125

Wrangler
Sep 2, 2014
181
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Well, I can answer a part of your question. Although, you might already know the answer.

The USNWR rankings, IMO, are bogus also. Here’s just 1 reason why: your academic reputation is taken into consideration. You will find that to always be the case in most all college academic rankings. Who votes on academic reputation? Professors, etc.

So, if you’re now considered a 3rd rate school and Harvard a 1st rate school - guess what - nothing is EVER going to change on those rankings.

Secondly, those rankings of quality of school is heavily influenced by the SAT & ACT rankings of incoming students. The smarter the students coming into a school, the higher the academic reputation and status of that school will be rated. It’s like, as I read one expert say one time - it’s like ranking hospitals effectiveness on how healthy their incoming patients are.

OSU , and OU, are primarily schools for the general, average, Oklahoma High school student that wishes a higher education. Period. Plainly put.

So OSU and OU are going to admit the average ACT & SAT school students. Therefore, we WILL ALWAYS have an average ACT range (middle 50%) of around 23-28. Give or take 1 point. The Average ACT Range (middle 50% of incoming students) at “elite” high ranking schools are more like between 29-33. Notre Dame is between 31-35. Which means only 25% of their students scored below 31 on the ACT and 25% of their students scored 35 or 36 (highest possible) on the ACT.

Therefore, OKlahoma legislature does not want to fund a NOtre DAme type school along with an OU and OSU. Therefore, OU and OSU MUST admit more average students. Which means this in rankings: WE’re always going to be a considered inferior school because our students aren’t so high scoring on ACT/SAT.

U. of Michigan is highly rated and it’s a public school. They are MUCH HARDER to get into than an OU or OSU. Therefore, MIchigan has elite status and is considered academically superior. THerefore, it’s easier for them to get Research $$ money and are, therefore, in the AAU.

The only way OSU can get into the AAU is to stop admitting about 1/2 of their students (lowest scores on the ACT) and then hire a bunch of famous research scholars to do research, then go apply for research $$ and get a bunch of money. THEN, and ONLY THEN - will we get considered for AAU status.

The Oklahoma legislature can not afford to fund OSU or OU and start another school (or say just UCO). NOt enough $$. OUr taxes would have to sky-rocket.

And guess what is in USNWR rankings? The AMOUNT of Research Dollars received. Theoretically you are a better school if you get more Research $$. That will be one of their criteria.

IN summary - to get “status”, higher USN&WR rankings, & AAU membership we would need to do this:
1. LImit incoming students to only those making above 26 to 28 on ACT.
2. Fire a bunch of professors because # of students enrolled would plummett.
3. Go hire new faculty anyway, because we need “name” research scholars who DO NOT TEACH MUCH - in order to get research $$ because we’re having ot compete against other schools for said research $$.
4. Wait about 15 to 30 years for research to pay-off at OSU so that the AAU would be tempted to invite us in to their exclusive club.
5. Result: You’ll have to Pay about 3 to 6 times more in STate taxes than you’re paying now in order to pay for all this and to go hire all those fired professors to teach at UCO - which would then grow to about U.Houston size of 50,000 Undergrads. And, of course, go pay for the buildings and dorm rooms needed to go with all those students down at UCO.

That’s what Burns HArgis meant about our “role” in Oklahoma.
amazing how the quality of the college is determined more by how educated they were prior to attending the school, and not by how educated they are when they graduate.
 
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Aug 9, 2011
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Just clarifying: I don’t hate them over this move. It was the right decision for them. I hated them way before this. With a passion. I have two favorite teams, OSU and whomever is playing ou. Any sport. You guys can be sensitive fools, I don’t care. They suck. Their leadership sucks, their fans suck. Their campus sucks. **** em.

If that bothers you, I know everything about you I need to know. You probably routinely brought one of those aholes to every Bedlam game in Stillwater and said crap like “it’s my ticket I’ll do whatever I want.”

And that’s why we’re little brother. You dorks most likely got beat up in school by the bully too. Or you’re the battered spouse that keeps saying you ‘fell down the stairs’ or ‘he didn’t really mean it this time.’

You clowns probably still want to keep playing them too after this because your gluttons with zero self respect. Losers.

And this is not directed at any one person(s) on this board. Notice, no quotes. Just clarifying my personal position and where those “fans” land with me. Wish more OSU fans felt the same but most of the older ones say dumb crap like “I root for ou when we’re not playing them.”

Get bent.
agree with everything you said! It needed to be said too!
 
May 4, 2011
2,809
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Charleston, SC
Then I’d guess you agree with my statement that it’s like ranking the best hospitals on how healthy and well their incoming patients are.

(Again - wasn’t my analogy but someone else’s - but I thought the analogy hit the proverbial nail on the head.)
Yes, though I missed that comment and would add the caveat that AAU is different. There are those kinds of measures that factor into AAU invites (best predictor of graduation rate is the family income of incoming students), but the research dollars are a fairly legitimate marker of the quality and amount of research being done. It's not perfect and I have my issues with the peer review systems, but having submitted NIH, CDC, and NSF proposals, it is an intense process where the best and most impactful ideas usually get funded. It's tough to adequately explain just how much those systems really are the envy of the world. It's part of why researchers from all over come to the US, just to have a shot at competing.