Bitter COLD in Oklahoma!

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Birry

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Makes sense. I mean the only true strict building codes mandated by Govt Legislation to prevent natural disaster damage is pretty much seismic on the West Coast and Hurricane specs on the East Coast (mainly Florida). I wouldn't see where anyone would ever legislate high costs building to mitigate natural disaster damage in Texas over Artic like conditions.

Thanks for the info! Do you think this will impact future building specs on the grid infrastructure in Texas? And if so..what kinda costs are we talking. It would be Billions right ?

In Reality the entire US Grid needs to be updated and overhauled. The loss of electricity just due to Line Loss over our current grid is insane as it is and we could be so much more efficient and secure.
Every building in the U.S. and most every other country is designed for code-prescribed loads from ASCE or equivalent, and those loads are based on mean recurrence intervals set by research and code committees. I have personally designed buildings nationwide including CA. There's nothing inherently more "strict" about the building code itself in CA than OK. They are nearly identical. Yes, the environmental loads are different depending on location, but the code is the same. It all falls under ASCE 7.

There are two major disconnects between what CA does and what we do in OK, for example.
1. The natural hazards in CA are simply different than here in OK. For example, a large magnitude earthquake could cause catastrophic damage to entire regions. Like, every single building impacted over hundreds of square miles. They also get earthquakes of large magnitude fairly often. You have a large-scale, a major risk to loss of life and property if something fails, AND a relatively frequent event at a relatively known location. It's just a higher, more quantifiable risk. In OK, a tornado doesn't cause nearly the same scale of damage, and we have ways of protecting life without having to design entire structures from the wind speeds and debris, and they're super random.
2. IBC requires third-party inspections on most structures. Places like CA take that very seriously (some would say too seriously), and places like OK don't even enforce them at all most of the time. The children that were killed at Plaza Towers Elementary could have potentially been saved had those inspections caught the fact that there was no mechanical attachment from the roof to the top of the CMU walls. It was simply resting on the wall with no anchorage. Wind pressure sucks the roof upward, no more connection to brace the top of the wall, the wall falls down. Not saying it's 100% responsible, but most in the structural engineering community believe that structures that are simply built per the drawings could withstand MUCH larger forces (including small tornado-level wind forces), but contractors just get away with not building them correctly, and inspections never catch it. In fact, I once asked a contractor in OK when the City of OKC was going to send their inspector out to look at the building, and he stated that the City inspector straight-up told him that he didn't want to show up on site until after the drywall was installed so he didn't have to "look at the structure". That's just how they do it in OK, and since I don't think a city can be held liable, they just don't care.

I can tell you this; when an engineer of record stamps drawings, they are usually being pretty "strict" with the application of the code. Whether or not that gets built or inspections take place is an entirely different conversation.
 

PF5

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This article is missing a lot. ERCOT spent millions after the 2011 event. El Paso didn’t experience the worst of this storm.....neither did Beaumont. If WEC or SPP had Dallas/Temple/Waco/Austin they would have had problems as well. SPP is having issues in Oklahoma right now so this cherry picking tid bits and ignoring the what’s really going on.
you seem to know slightly more than I do about all this mess, (sarcasm) and I'll agree that El Paso didn't see the types of averages that other parts of TX did, But Beaumont had similar averages to Houston and Houston is having lots of problems...are they not a part of ERCOT?
 

Binman4OSU

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I can tell you this; when an engineer of record stamps drawings, they are usually being pretty "strict" with the application of the code. Whether or not that gets built or inspections take place is an entirely different conversation.
Remember the big dig project in Boston where the concrete panel fell from the ceiling and killed that family when it fell on their car.

Yeah the engineer's spec'd a type of adhesive anchor for those rods holding the panel up that had been tested for Creep on the epoxy, because when you insert the rod in an overhead anchor hole with epoxy...the weight of anchor rod will pull away from the bottom of the hole a bit due to creep (gravity).

The installers decided to use a cheaper epoxy with similar holding values...however, it had not been tested for Creep.

Long story short, the holding power of the cheap epoxy they used was reduced by up to 40% due to creep and ended up in failure costing human lives
 

Donnyboy

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you seem to know slightly more than I do about all this mess, (sarcasm) and I'll agree that El Paso didn't see the types of averages that other parts of TX did, But Beaumont had similar averages to Houston and Houston is having lots of problems...are they not a part of ERCOT?
Yes......and SPP is having similar problems in Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, all are.......and they can lean on a larger system. If Oklahoma was stand alone grid they would be having the exact same issues at a minimum or worse. Nat Gas is $1200 today on the OneOk index. You have blackouts and water pipes busting and gas shortages there......and they should be better prepared than Houston for cold right. Texas is getting the attention because we are bigger (ERCOT has more customers than 5 states in SPP combined) and our governor made an ass of himself monday.
 

PF5

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Yes......and SPP is having similar problems in Louisiana, Oklahoma, Arkansas, all are.......and they can lean on a larger system. If Oklahoma was stand alone grid they would be having the exact same issues at a minimum or worse. Nat Gas is $1200 today on the OneOk index. You have blackouts and water pipes busting and gas shortages there......and they should be better prepared than Houston for cold right. Texas is getting the attention because we are bigger (ERCOT has more customers than 5 states in SPP combined) and our governor made an ass of himself monday.
so basically, blame Mother Nature, right?!
 

Donnyboy

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so basically, blame Mother Nature, right?!
Seriously yes. This has never happened in this region. You have record low temps Texas, La, Ark, Miss.....you have near all time lows in KS, OK.....nothing that big or strong as ever happened.
 

PF5

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Sen. Ted Cruz flew to Mexico amid Texas winter crisis and power outages USA Today

Cruz said in a statement his daughters had wanted to take the trip to Cancun with their friends.
"With school cancelled for the week, our girls asked to take a trip with friends. Wanting to be a good dad, I flew down with them last night and am flying back this afternoon," Cruz said.

Cruz had previously criticized Austin Mayor Steve Adler for flying to Cabo in a private jet while telling Austinites to stay home, writing in a Dec. 2 tweet, "hypocrites. Complete and utter hypocrites." The post began recirculating on social media as pictures of his trip to Mexico went viral.

In a Tuesday radio interview, Cruz told Texans to stay home amid the severe weather.
"Don't risk it. Keep your family safe and just stay home and hug your kids," Cruz said.

What an idiot...unfortunately, he's a senator for 4 more years!!
 

Binman4OSU

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Stupid about AGW!!
Texas is getting the attention because we are bigger (ERCOT has more customers than 5 states in SPP combined) and our governor made an ass of himself monday.
Yeah..the Gov doing what he did was stupid. Guy was on TV on night 1 blaming the Green New Deal. Which actually isn't even a thing yet. 3 weeks earlier he was on TV bragging about an EO he had just signed to ensure that no Green New Deal projects would ever happen in Texas
 

Donnyboy

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Yeah..the Gov doing what he did was stupid. Guy was on TV on night 1 blaming the Green New Deal. Which actually isn't even a thing yet. 3 weeks earlier he was on TV bragging about an EO he had just signed to ensure that no Green New Deal projects would ever happen in Texas
All while being governor of the state that overbuilt wind more than any other and he never did a thing about it. The ERCOT project cue is public anyone can look it up. Some of y’all that have been on here for awhile may remember me talking about it during the Pickens plan days.....I said then it will never happen because he never had a single approved project. Literally anyone could see it and not a single reporter did the 5 minutes of research. That’s how about the same level of research going on now.

It’s every approved generation and transmission project in the next seven years. There is one thermal asset on it every other generation asset planned for the next 7 years is wind or solar. So not only is he stumping instead of working he is a giant hypocrite
 
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Birry

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Remember the big dig project in Boston where the concrete panel fell from the ceiling and killed that family when it fell on their car.

Yeah the engineer's spec'd a type of adhesive anchor for those rods holding the panel up that had been tested for Creep on the epoxy, because when you insert the rod in an overhead anchor hole with epoxy...the weight of anchor rod will pull away from the bottom of the hole a bit due to creep (gravity).

The installers decided to use a cheaper epoxy with similar holding values...however, it had not been tested for Creep.

Long story short, the holding power of the cheap epoxy they used was reduced by up to 40% due to creep and ended up in failure costing human lives
Stuff like that happens on every project. Most of the time it goes un-noticed for myriad reasons. If you're building a pergola in someone's backyard, you can get away with that. If you're erecting a concrete panel or some huge element where the forces are huge, any small weaknesses will get exposed, and huge problems would occur.

My boss's mantra is "You have to ask yourself, 'What happens if this fails?'" It's a simple question, but it allows you to process risk management as part of the design.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of epoxy anchors in tension. Some manufacturers have "sustained tension" ratings on them, but so much of epoxy is dependent on the installation procedures being followed, and you're relying on a proprietary product that probably hasn't been tested for a 50-yr life in tension. That's just scary to me, and I don't rely on it.
 

Binman4OSU

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Stupid about AGW!!
Personally, I'm not a big fan of epoxy anchors in tension. Some manufacturers have "sustained tension" ratings on them, but so much of epoxy is dependent on the installation procedures being followed, and you're relying on a proprietary product that probably hasn't been tested for a 50-yr life in tension. That's just scary to me, and I don't rely on it.
They went back with mechanical undercut anchors and replaced all the epoxy ones and then several businesses got sued out of existence over it. Mitt Romney was Gov then and he did a big presser on trying to explain the reason the old epoxy failed and how the new mechanical anchor was going to make it better. It was very clear he was far outside of his element LOL
 

Pokit N

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Bonus of hybrid cars?

DUDE, this is my idea! I aboslutely have been planning to buy the new powerboost engine spec'd w/ the largest generator in the back soley for backing up my house power if the lights go out. I wasn't sure if it would work but it looks like it does! Now I just need to come up w/ $65,000 :(
 

Donnyboy

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DUDE, this is my idea! I aboslutely have been planning to buy the new powerboost engine spec'd w/ the largest generator in the back soley for backing up my house power if the lights go out. I wasn't sure if it would work but it looks like it does! Now I just need to come up w/ $65,000 :(
You can get a generator that runs everything in your house a lot cheaper and it will work so much better
 

jetman

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So do they build a lot of houses in Texas with water pipes in the ceilings? I'm seeing all these stories of people's busted water pipes and collapsed ceilings. This is exactly why that's a horrible idea. Is that a Texas thing or a new house thing in general? F all that.
 
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drbwh

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Remember the big dig project in Boston where the concrete panel fell from the ceiling and killed that family when it fell on their car.

Yeah the engineer's spec'd a type of adhesive anchor for those rods holding the panel up that had been tested for Creep on the epoxy, because when you insert the rod in an overhead anchor hole with epoxy...the weight of anchor rod will pull away from the bottom of the hole a bit due to creep (gravity).

The installers decided to use a cheaper epoxy with similar holding values...however, it had not been tested for Creep.

Long story short, the holding power of the cheap epoxy they used was reduced by up to 40% due to creep and ended up in failure costing human lives
Stuff like that happens on every project. Most of the time it goes un-noticed for myriad reasons. If you're building a pergola in someone's backyard, you can get away with that. If you're erecting a concrete panel or some huge element where the forces are huge, any small weaknesses will get exposed, and huge problems would occur.

My boss's mantra is "You have to ask yourself, 'What happens if this fails?'" It's a simple question, but it allows you to process risk management as part of the design.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of epoxy anchors in tension. Some manufacturers have "sustained tension" ratings on them, but so much of epoxy is dependent on the installation procedures being followed, and you're relying on a proprietary product that probably hasn't been tested for a 50-yr life in tension. That's just scary to me, and I don't rely on it.
Leave it to engineers to make doctors look like dumb jocks. What a nerd fest this turned into.


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