Broken Arrow accused of constitutional violation

  • You are viewing Orangepower as a Guest. To start new threads, reply to posts, or participate in polls or contests - you must register. Registration is free and easy. Click Here to register.

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
22,457
15,330
1,743
It was one of the satellite churches and while the on site pastor or what his tile was did not say it in a service he did say it in a fellowship type setting.
I'll leave it up to someone else to defend the Bible or interpret it's stance on homosexuality, but after watching a lot of Craig Groeschel over the years there are two things I say with a great deal of confidence. His view of homosexuality is based on what he has read in the Bible, and he is very welcoming of all to his church.
 

steross

he/him
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
32,070
32,907
1,743
oklahoma city
I find it interesting that virtualy all societies worldwide have some short of religion. Why is this ? I am sure you
have read Mans Search for Meaning....by Victor Frankl. In it and later too he explores why we all search for meaning. To have meaning in our life is our deepest search...and that deepest meaning is to to know the essence of everything.
If you would like to hear a different and more practical perspective on the universality of religion, there is a podcast at the link below. Basically, religion was a cultural innovation to allow humans to live in larger groups.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/06/720656274/where-does-religion-come-from-one-researcher-points-to-cultural-evolution
 

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
22,457
15,330
1,743
If you would like to hear a different and more practical perspective on the universality of religion, there is a podcast at the link below. Basically, religion was a cultural innovation to allow humans to live in larger groups.

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/06/720656274/where-does-religion-come-from-one-researcher-points-to-cultural-evolution
I suspect you've seen the Bill Maher movie Religulous. It was informative and typical smug Bill Maher. The only part I had a real difference with was the last couple of minutes where he made it sound like religion was a threat to mankind and came to a very negative conclusion. As I stated earlier, there are a lot of individual stories where religion has been a positive influence in people's lives. For someone trying to portray himself as so honest and fair, he ignored that important facet.
 

UrbanCowboy1

Some cowboys gots smarts real good like me.
Aug 8, 2006
3,936
1,975
1,743
Phoenix, AZ
I suspect you've seen the Bill Maher movie Religulous. It was informative and typical smug Bill Maher. The only part I had a real difference with was the last couple of minutes where he made it sound like religion was a threat to mankind and came to a very negative conclusion. As I stated earlier, there are a lot of individual stories where religion has been a positive influence in people's lives. For someone trying to portray himself as so honest and fair, he ignored that important facet.
I actually agree with him. I find religion to be incredibly dangerous and insipid. The ironic thing is almost all Christians do as well - as long as the previous sentence isn't referring to Christianity.


Theory: religion is a logic virus. It rewires your brain to believe in things it knows aren't and can't be true. We all know animals can't talk. If someone told you an animal spoke to them, we would know they aren't mentally well. But put in a serpent talking to Eve... short circuit. The brain makes the leap from knowingly false to possibly true. Calling this 'faith' is the best marketing campaign of all time. Believers put a positive spin on something we would call mental illness if it were any other subject.

All this sounds cruel, but it's the only conclusion I'm able to come up with in regards to religious systems.
 

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
22,457
15,330
1,743
I actually agree with him. I find religion to be incredibly dangerous and insipid. The ironic thing is almost all Christians do as well - as long as the previous sentence isn't referring to Christianity.


Theory: religion is a logic virus. It rewires your brain to believe in things it knows aren't and can't be true. We all know animals can't talk. If someone told you an animal spoke to them, we would know they aren't mentally well. But put in a serpent talking to Eve... short circuit. The brain makes the leap from knowingly false to possibly true. Calling this 'faith' is the best marketing campaign of all time. Believers put a positive spin on something we would call mental illness if it were any other subject.

All this sounds cruel, but it's the only conclusion I'm able to come up with in regards to religious systems.
Do you think individuals sometimes rely on religion to avoid self destructive or selfish behavior? How many churches reach out to help those in need every day? Would you say the government is a more trustworthy mechanism to help those in need?
 

okstate987

Territorial Marshal
A/V Subscriber
Oct 17, 2009
9,148
5,236
1,743
Somewhere
I actually agree with him. I find religion to be incredibly dangerous and insipid. The ironic thing is almost all Christians do as well - as long as the previous sentence isn't referring to Christianity.


Theory: religion is a logic virus. It rewires your brain to believe in things it knows aren't and can't be true. We all know animals can't talk. If someone told you an animal spoke to them, we would know they aren't mentally well. But put in a serpent talking to Eve... short circuit. The brain makes the leap from knowingly false to possibly true. Calling this 'faith' is the best marketing campaign of all time. Believers put a positive spin on something we would call mental illness if it were any other subject.

All this sounds cruel, but it's the only conclusion I'm able to come up with in regards to religious systems.
This 100%. Religion encourages one to believe ridiculous and nonsensical things while undermining ones confidence in understanding and dealing with what is.

It is one of many reasons that after seminary, I left the faith.
 

okstate987

Territorial Marshal
A/V Subscriber
Oct 17, 2009
9,148
5,236
1,743
Somewhere
Do you think individuals sometimes rely on religion to avoid self destructive or selfish behavior? How many churches reach out to help those in need every day? Would you say the government is a more trustworthy mechanism to help those in need?
Yes, i think they do, and the destructive and selfish behavior just gets repurposed and comes out in a different way. Many times, it is actually worse. That is how supression works.
 

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
22,457
15,330
1,743
Greatly depends on the need you are talking about.
It differs by churches. I'm not talking about spiritual needs. I'm talking food, clothing, emotional support. The government has access to far more money so it can accomplish more. But, if I tithe, and a bunch of volunteers from my church use that money to help someone, the government is going to waste far more money transferring wealth.
 

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
22,457
15,330
1,743
Yes, i think they do, and the destructive and selfish behavior just gets repurposed and comes out in a different way. Many times, it is actually worse. That is how supression works.
That's pretty cynical even by my standards.
 

steross

he/him
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
32,070
32,907
1,743
oklahoma city
It differs by churches. I'm not talking about spiritual needs. I'm talking food, clothing, emotional support. The government has access to far more money so it can accomplish more. But, if I tithe, and a bunch of volunteers from my church use that money to help someone, the government is going to waste far more money transferring wealth.
Sure, simple things like food, clothing, and emotional support can frequently be handled by religious or other private charities. But, "those in need" is massive relative to those simple things. Handing out turkey on thanksgiving, great for churches. The kid with an omphalocele, developmental delay, and a cleft palate born to the mother with a meth addiction with the unknown father who just got some because he gave her meth. That level of need is beyond the scope of churches typically, especially over the long term.

And, how much money is wasted in this transfer to the needy is definitely in the eye of the beholder. There is a LOT of money put into ornate churches, buying property, salaries for pastors etc that as taxed money could go a long way to actually help the needy and not to help Osteen get another jet. I'm not arguing that money should be taxed away, just saying that it isn't an efficient transfer to the needy by any stretch of the imagination.
 

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
22,457
15,330
1,743
Seriously, just on the surface of this discussion I'm missing what seems to be obvious to 987 and you. I just needed a couple of examples to act as my "light dawneth on marble head" moment".
I try not be disrespectful of religion but you're asking what things the church asks us to believe?

Just from the hip here:

The Creator of all, more powerful than all the militaries of the world combined and more wise than all people combined, would determine who gets eternal rewards versus punishment based mostly on which continent they were born on

A man lived inside a fish for 3 days.

A man built a boat and carried 2 of every species on the planet for a year.
 
Last edited:

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
22,457
15,330
1,743
Sure, simple things like food, clothing, and emotional support can frequently be handled by religious or other private charities. But, "those in need" is massive relative to those simple things. Handing out turkey on thanksgiving, great for churches. The kid with an omphalocele, developmental delay, and a cleft palate born to the mother with a meth addiction with the unknown father who just got some because he gave her meth. That level of need is beyond the scope of churches typically, especially over the long term.

And, how much money is wasted in this transfer to the needy is definitely in the eye of the beholder. There is a LOT of money put into ornate churches, buying property, salaries for pastors etc that as taxed money could go a long way to actually help the needy and not to help Osteen get another jet. I'm not arguing that money should be taxed away, just saying that it isn't an efficient transfer to the needy by any stretch of the imagination.
Can't really disagree with any of that. It's why I wish people were more selective about who they throw money at.

Again I think Lifechurch is a good steward of my money. Joel Osteen is a snake oil salesman and he's not even the worst.
 
Jul 5, 2020
1,429
315
213
58
Broken Arrow
I try not be disrespectful of religion but you're asking what things the church asks us to believe?

Just from the hip here:

The Creator of all, more powerful than all the militaries of the world combined and more wise than all people combined, would determine who gets eternal rewards versus punishment based mostly on which continent they were born on

A man lived inside a fish for 3 days.

A man built a boat and carried 2 of ever species on the planet for 2 years.
No, I wasn't asking you to believe anything. I just couldn't determine to what examples he was referring by "rediculous and nonsensical". But thanks. I see the point now. That being said, I choose to try and look beyond just the words of the stories and parables. My beliefs can be summed up in the Apostles' Creed, including that one day I will be rewarded with definitive answers to all of my questions.
 
Last edited:

Jostate

Identifies as a Cowboys fan
A/V Subscriber
Jun 24, 2005
22,457
15,330
1,743
No, I wasn't asking you to believe anything. I just couldn't determine to what examples he was referring by "rediculous and nonsensical". But thanks. I see the point now. That being said, I choose to try and look beyond just the words of the stories and parables. My beliefs can be summed up in the Apostles' Creed, including that one day I will be rewarded with definitive answers to all of my questions.
I think most religions teach really good values. The problem with the church is the same as most institutions. Some dirtbags mess it up.