Covid-19

  • You are viewing Orangepower as a Guest. To start new threads, reply to posts, or participate in polls or contests - you must register. Registration is free and easy. Click Here to register.

steross

he/him
A/V Subscriber
Mar 31, 2004
32,039
32,889
1,743
oklahoma city
Read my original question. Please point me to the place where I stated that George shouldn't get vaccinated. I simply asked if his immunity is as good as someone who hasn't been infected but has been vaccinated. The next thing you know I'm an antivaxxer and probably responsible for many of the 650k deaths including RX's sister-in-law. I should have just done a quick google search and skipped this absolute crap show. I actually thought someone might respond with something like "Yes, it's good immunity like we've always thought." or "No, we're thinking now that natural immunity is not good" or even (I know I'm dreaming here) "We just don't really know at this point". I should have known better.
Whoa, chill. Don’t put on me other things discussed. I just wonder why people want ok when there is much better. It is very unAmerican. We typically want the best.
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
A/V Subscriber
Nov 8, 2004
73,800
41,681
1,743
Closer to Stillwater today than I was last year

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
A/V Subscriber
Nov 8, 2004
73,800
41,681
1,743
Closer to Stillwater today than I was last year
Why do people want "at least equal" when they can have clearly better?
Read my original question. Please point me to the place where I stated that George shouldn't get vaccinated. I simply asked if his immunity is as good as someone who hasn't been infected but has been vaccinated. The next thing you know I'm an antivaxxer and probably responsible for many of the 650k deaths including RX's sister-in-law. I should have just done a quick google search and skipped this absolute crap show. I actually thought someone might respond with something like "Yes, it's good immunity like we've always thought." or "No, we're thinking now that natural immunity is not good" or even (I know I'm dreaming here) "We just don't really know at this point". I should have known better.
I've answered your questions in great detail, but you have ignored those messages in favor of repeating the same premise. This likely means that you know the premise is false, but you simply cannot change your mind.

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
 

gogetumpoke

Banned
Banned
Sep 3, 2010
721
173
1,593
From the article:

"... can defer their shots for up to 12 months from the date tested positive."

Why wait 12 months when they can have superior immunity now?

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
They are obviously leaving a window open to allow them to change the policy if new studies show that natural immunity is somehow inferior. I watched an interview with the St. Lukes representative and he said as much.
 
Dec 9, 2013
1,196
399
713
51
Read my original question. Please point me to the place where I stated that George shouldn't get vaccinated. I simply asked if his immunity is as good as someone who hasn't been infected but has been vaccinated. The next thing you know I'm an antivaxxer and probably responsible for many of the 650k deaths including RX's sister-in-law. I should have just done a quick google search and skipped this absolute crap show. I actually thought someone might respond with something like "Yes, it's good immunity like we've always thought." or "No, we're thinking now that natural immunity is not good" or even (I know I'm dreaming here) "We just don't really know at this point". I should have known better.
Then if you really were after a science based reason why bring up the hypothetical about George and Bob and the mandate?
 

gogetumpoke

Banned
Banned
Sep 3, 2010
721
173
1,593
I've answered your questions in great detail, but you have ignored those messages in favor of repeating the same premise. This likely means that you know the premise is false, but you simply cannot change your mind.

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
No, you have continually missed the point as usual. I have been under the impression that you are just dumb but now I'm starting to think you may be dangerous. Get help.
 

gogetumpoke

Banned
Banned
Sep 3, 2010
721
173
1,593
Then if you really were after a science based reason why bring up the hypothetical about George and Bob and the mandate?
Because if natural immunity is at least as good George shouldn't be forced to do anything that Bob isn't forced to do. There seems to be differing opinions on which is best all of a sudden and I wondered where that was coming from. That's it . No hidden agenda. No argument from me on whether or not George should get vaccinated or not rather should he be forced to if the immunity is the same. You better call Margret and tell her to handle her problems the way St. Lukes is.
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
A/V Subscriber
Nov 8, 2004
73,800
41,681
1,743
Closer to Stillwater today than I was last year
Then if you really were after a science based reason why bring up the hypothetical about George and Bob and the mandate?
Because if natural immunity is at least as good George shouldn't be forced to do anything that Bob isn't forced to do. There seems to be differing opinions on which is best all of a sudden and I wondered where that was coming from. That's it . No hidden agenda. No argument from me on whether or not George should get vaccinated or not rather should he be forced to if the immunity is the same. You better call Margret and tell her to handle her problems the way St. Lukes is.
St. Luke's is only giving a year and then they still have to be vaccinated. It's like you only read the part of the article that confirms your premise and ignore the rest.

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
A/V Subscriber
Nov 8, 2004
73,800
41,681
1,743
Closer to Stillwater today than I was last year
From the article:

"... can defer their shots for up to 12 months from the date tested positive."

Why wait 12 months when they can have superior immunity now?

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
They are obviously leaving a window open to allow them to change the policy if new studies show that natural immunity is somehow inferior. I watched an interview with the St. Lukes representative and he said as much.
Why leave a window open to allow for an inferior immunity to spread the contagion. Non sequitur.

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
A/V Subscriber
Nov 8, 2004
73,800
41,681
1,743
Closer to Stillwater today than I was last year
I've answered your questions in great detail, but you have ignored those messages in favor of repeating the same premise. This likely means that you know the premise is false, but you simply cannot change your mind.

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
No, you have continually missed the point as usual. I have been under the impression that you are just dumb but now I'm starting to think you may be dangerous. Get help.
You are projecting.

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
 

UrbanCowboy1

Some cowboys gots smarts real good like me.
Aug 8, 2006
3,929
1,975
1,743
Phoenix, AZ
Not a political question for our med experts. Why does immunity wane from the vaccine/natural infection for COVID? The only other vaccine I can think of that requires multiple injections throughout your life is TB (not counting the flu which I've always been told isn't because immunity wanes but because the flu virus mutates).
 

RxCowboy

Has no Rx for his orange obsession.
A/V Subscriber
Nov 8, 2004
73,800
41,681
1,743
Closer to Stillwater today than I was last year
Not a political question for our med experts. Why does immunity wane from the vaccine/natural infection for COVID? The only other vaccine I can think of that requires multiple injections throughout your life is TB (not counting the flu which I've always been told isn't because immunity wanes but because the flu virus mutates).
1. There isn't a TB vaccine. What you get annually is a skin test to see if you have been exposed or infected.
2. Immunity from flu vaccines wanes over time. This can happen with other vaccines. That's why we give boosters for tetanus and measles.
3. The experience of waning hasn't been duplicated in other surveys, including in Israel. We don't know why they saw that in their early vaccinations.

sent from Tapatalk penalized by wearing a mask
 

oks10

Federal Marshal
A/V Subscriber
Sep 9, 2007
10,472
6,706
1,743
Piedmont, OK
Because if natural immunity is at least as good George shouldn't be forced to do anything that Bob isn't forced to do. There seems to be differing opinions on which is best all of a sudden and I wondered where that was coming from. That's it . No hidden agenda. No argument from me on whether or not George should get vaccinated or not rather should he be forced to if the immunity is the same. You better call Margret and tell her to handle her problems the way St. Lukes is.
I do see that this highlighted part is what trying to answer. The problem is that we have no idea what people's individual immunities are so I think it would be irresponsible to just say "if you've tested positive in the last X months, you're exempt from vaccine requirements". It's not just a simple "is natural immunity equivalent to vaccinated" question because that assumes that all positive cases result in equal immunity, from asymptomatic to almost dying. I don't think there's any data out there claiming that natural immunity from asymptomatic infection is equivalent to sever near-death infection is there? So then are you going to disqualify people from the exemptions because they had covid but weren't sick enough?
 

LS1 Z28

Territorial Marshal
Oct 30, 2007
5,116
4,071
1,743
Is the medical community at least in agreement that natural immunity is superior to the immunity from the vaccine?
The science on this is far from settled. Here is a summary of what I've seen:

1. The Pfizer vaccine had an estimated efficacy rate of 95% against the original strain.
2. The Moderna vaccine had an estimated efficacy rate of 94.1% against the original strain.
3. The WHO estimates natural immunity from infection provides 80-90% protection against reinfection.
4. The JnJ vaccine had an estimated efficacy rate of of 74.4% against the original strain.

The delta variant is a different animal than the original strain. The CDC estimated that the overall efficacy rate of the vaccinated population was 91% against the original strain, but they dropped that estimate to 66% with the delta variant. The vaccines still provide good protection against hospitalization and death, but they aren't as effective at preventing infection.

The study from Israel shows that natural immunity from infection provides better protection from the delta variant than the vaccine, but it also shows that those with natural immunity that received 1 shot of the vaccine had the highest level of protection overall. Based off this data, we might be better off giving the previously infected one "booster shot" as opposed to a full vaccination. As I said earlier, the science is far from settled.

The vast majority of medical professionals encourage everyone to get vaccinated, regardless of whether or not they've been infected, because that's been shown to provide the highest level of protection. Only time will tell whether or not that was actually necessary.
 
Last edited:

gogetumpoke

Banned
Banned
Sep 3, 2010
721
173
1,593
I do see that this highlighted part is what trying to answer. The problem is that we have no idea what people's individual immunities are so I think it would be irresponsible to just say "if you've tested positive in the last X months, you're exempt from vaccine requirements". It's not just a simple "is natural immunity equivalent to vaccinated" question because that assumes that all positive cases result in equal immunity, from asymptomatic to almost dying. I don't think there's any data out there claiming that natural immunity from asymptomatic infection is equivalent to sever near-death infection is there? So then are you going to disqualify people from the exemptions because they had covid but weren't sick enough?
Very good points. I was thinking yesterday that maybe the solution to the mandate would just be to have the antibodies checked and we would know everyone's immunity from that. Now I'm reading that the antibody tests aren't reliable. Thanks for the response.
 

gogetumpoke

Banned
Banned
Sep 3, 2010
721
173
1,593
The science on this is far from settled. Here is a summary of what I've seen:

1. The Pfizer vaccine had an estimated efficacy rate of 95% against the original strain.
2. The Moderna vaccine had an estimated efficacy rate of 94.1% against the original strain.
3. The WHO estimates natural immunity from infection provides 80-90% protection against reinfection
4. The JnJ vaccine had an estimated efficacy rate of of 74.4% against the original strain.

The delta variant is a different animal than the original strain. The CDC estimated that the overall efficacy rate of the vaccinated population was 91% against the original strain, but they dropped that estimate to 66% with the delta variant. The vaccines still provide good protection against hospitalization and death, but they aren't as effective at preventing infection.

The study from Israel shows that natural immunity from infection provides better protection from the delta variant than the vaccine, but it also shows that those with natural immunity that received 1 shot of the vaccine had the highest level of protection overall. Based off this data, we might be better off giving the previously infected one "booster shot" as opposed to a full vaccination. As I said earlier, the science is far from settled.

The vast majority of medical professionals encourage everyone to get vaccinated, regardless of whether or not they've been infected, because that's been shown to provide the highest level of protection. Only time will tell whether or not that was actually necessary.
Exactly the information that I was looking for!! Thank you very much.
 

oks10

Federal Marshal
A/V Subscriber
Sep 9, 2007
10,472
6,706
1,743
Piedmont, OK
Very good points. I was thinking yesterday that maybe the solution to the mandate would just be to have the antibodies checked and we would know everyone's immunity from that. Now I'm reading that the antibody tests aren't reliable. Thanks for the response.
Yeah, sorry about the knee jerk reaction to the initial question. I was reading too far into what you were saying and thought you were asking something that you weren't. My non-medical opinion, unless we can accurately determine someone's natural immunity in comparison to vaccinated immunity, people just need to get to vaccinated. I still don't want a government mandate, but I have no problems with a business requiring it (with the negative test exemption) from their employees. I also still think there's dangers in making too big of a deal out of natural immunity because there ARE people (and many of them) that will take it out of context as "proof" of why they don't "need" the vaccine. And all that's going to do is just make this stupid pandemic last even longer...
 

wrenhal

Federal Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
12,198
4,527
1,743
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/09/15/florida-landlord-requiring-covid-vaccine-proof

Florida landlord says tenants must get coronavirus vaccine: ‘You don’t want to get vaccinated? You have to move.’

Jasmine Irby was leaving her two-bedroom apartment in South Florida last month when she noticed a letter from the management company taped to her door.
It read: “As of August 15th, all new tenants must show proof of vaccination before moving in. … Existing tenants must show proof of vaccination before leases are renewed.” The policy, the notice stated, also applied to building employees.

Irby, a security guard who had lived in the Lauderhill, Fla., building for the past two years, was appalled, she told The Washington Post. Irby, 28, had planned to renew her lease by the end of August, but she did not intend to get the coronavirus vaccine.
After unsuccessful negotiations with the management company and her landlord, Santiago A. Alvarez, Irby filed a complaint with the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services demanding that she be allowed to renew her lease “without having to disclose my personal health information.”

The letter about the vaccine requirement was posted on Irby’s door as Florida began to grapple with a surge of coronavirus infections attributable to the highly transmissible delta variant. To date, more than 65 percent of Florida residents have received at least one dose of the coronavirus vaccine, according to The Post’s vaccine tracker.
Although Gov. Ron DeSantis was vaccinated in April, the Republican has said that getting immunized is a personal choice that should be left to individuals. DeSantis has pushed against mask and vaccination mandates in businesses and schools. He has also issued executive orders banning businesses and government entities from requiring proof of vaccination.
Alvarez’s policy, which was first reported by the South Florida Sun Sentinel, tests the boundaries of DeSantis’s orders as some businesses in the state attempt to enact their own coronavirus policies to combat the surge in cases. The Biden administration has urged officials in states with low vaccination rates to take a stricter stand on vaccine and mask mandates.

Irby’s attorney drafted a letter that was sent to Alvarez alleging he is violating the governor’s executive order forbidding businesses from requiring “patrons or customers” to provide proof of vaccination.

Tenants wishing to renew their leases must now show proof of vaccination, Alvarez said, though he added that he is willing to allow more time for some long-term residents to meet the requirement. Employees who decline to get the vaccine will be terminated, Alvarez said.
After recovering from covid-19 earlier this year, recently losing two friends from virus complications, and learning that at least a dozen of his tenants have died of the illness, Alvarez — who owns about 1,200 units in Broward and Miami Dade counties — said he is not willing to compromise the health of his vaccinated employees and tenants for those unwilling to get immunized.
“It very much upsets me that my employees are exposed to [covid-19] all days of the week because there is someone who does not want to get vaccinated,” Alvarez, 80, told The Post. “If you don’t want to get vaccinated, I have the obligation and the duty to protect my workers and tenants.”

His attorney, Juan C. Zorrilla, told The Post his client is not violating the governor’s order because tenants are not “customers or patrons” and Alvarez is not providing a service to them. Alvarez, who is willing to make exceptions for those who choose not to get vaccinated for religious or medical reasons, is not violating any other state law or county ordinance, Zorrilla added.
A spokeswoman for the governor’s office told The Post in an email that “the law is very clear,” adding that the Department of Health will issue $5,000 fines to businesses, government entities and educational institutions that require proof of vaccination. The law goes into effect Thursday.
Alvarez “can’t require vaccine passports as a condition of entry or service,” Christina Pushaw, a spokeswoman for DeSantis, told The Post.

When vaccines were not yet widely available in the United States, Alvarez said, it was difficult to learn of a tenant dying from the virus — though in a way, it felt inevitable.
But all of that changed, Alvarez said, when vaccines were approved and people could choose to protect themselves and members of their communities.
By early August, Alvarez said he’d had enough of DeSantis’s comments and orders against vaccine and mask mandates. So he drafted the policy and issued letters to his nearly 70 employees, giving them until Aug. 15 to get the first dose of the vaccine or face termination. Two declined to get vaccinated and walked away from the job, Alvarez said.

Then, he sent tenants a letter encouraging them to get immunized as soon as possible. New tenants, the letter stated, must also show proof of vaccination as of Aug. 15. Those wishing to renew their leases were told to do the same.

“You don’t want to get vaccinated? You have to move,” Alvarez told The Post. “And if you don’t move, one must move forward with eviction.”
He added: “It’s a lack of consideration for your neighbor, it’s a lack of consideration to their own families, to their children.”
Alvarez said most of his tenants and employees have praised him for putting the policy in place.
Irby, whose lease ended on Aug. 31, vacated the premises at the end of the month and moved in with her brother.
“No one wants to live anywhere where they are not wanted … If that’s the case, then I might as well get out,” Irby told The Post. “It was just best that I walked away.”
 

cowboyinexile

Have some class
A/V Subscriber
Jun 29, 2004
19,919
11,290
1,743
41
Fairmont, MN
Not a political question for our med experts. Why does immunity wane from the vaccine/natural infection for COVID? The only other vaccine I can think of that requires multiple injections throughout your life is TB (not counting the flu which I've always been told isn't because immunity wanes but because the flu virus mutates).
You need boosters for tetanus and hepatitis as well.

Viruses are weird. Stuff like cold sores and shingles seem to just randomly happen. With this, who knows how COVID will impact someone a decade from now.