Covid-19

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UrbanCowboy1

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1. There isn't a TB vaccine. What you get annually is a skin test to see if you have been exposed or infected.
2. Immunity from flu vaccines wanes over time. This can happen with other vaccines. That's why we give boosters for tetanus and measles.
3. The experience of waning hasn't been duplicated in other surveys, including in Israel. We don't know why they saw that in their early vaccinations.

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Ha! I completely goofed on that. I said TB, but I meant tetanus. Apologies.

Also, the bigger question is really why do some diseases require boosters but others don't. ELI5.

That's super interesting on point 3. So we're not sure if COVID vaccine wanes or not yet.
 
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RxCowboy

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Ha! I completely goofed on that. I said TB, but I meant tetanus. Apologies.

Also, the bigger question is really why do some diseases require boosters but others don't. ELI5.

That's super interesting on point 3. So we're not sure if COVID vaccine wanes or not yet.
Article from today: COVID vaccines wanes over time, but still helps prevent death and severe illness
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-09-covid-vaccine-effects-wane-death.html
There is nothing new in that article. If you follow the links backwards to the original research you'll find that I have explained them in some depth.

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Mar 11, 2006
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Hmm, to me that seems like it isn't waning at all - just less effective at fighting different strains.
Well, “COVID vaccine wanes over time” is the headline and Pfizer claimed to FDA today that waning effectiness is not due to different strains.

As the previous article states, study suggests that after four months of the second dose, the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is less effective at preventing infection (classified as a positive PCR test), with protection falling from 96% to 84%.
And real-life data from Israel suggests that over-60s who received their second dose of the Pfizer vaccine in March 2021 were 1.6 times better protected against infection than those who received their second dose two months earlier

Plus, (in new article below) Pfizer says data suggest vaccine boosters needed for waning vaccine efficacy.
Pfizer told the FDA Wednesday that data from its clinical trials suggests a third shot of its coronavirus vaccine may be necessary six months after the second dose because of waning efficacy.
Pfizer data from its trials showed that the efficacy of its coronavirus vaccine, which it developed with BioNTech, degrades by around 6% every two months after the second dose, increasing the likelihood of breakthrough cases.
The drop in effectiveness was "due to waning of vaccine immune responses" and not the Delta variant of the virus escaping the protection offered by the vaccine, Pfizer said.


https://news.yahoo.com/pfizer-says-data-suggests-vaccine-172135257.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

Appears the Moderna vaccine also wanes over time
Moderna Inc. has released a set of data which suggested its COVID-19 vaccine is effective in preventing serious health issues or death from "variants of concern" but admitting that efficacy decreases over time.
In a statement issued along with the data, Moderna CEO Stéphane Bancel insisted that the data "supports the need for a booster" shot
.

My guess is we won’t know definitively how much the vaccines effectiveness drops over time. I would hope they just prove and announce that a 3rd dose can only help and not cause any danger. That way we can move forward quickly giving boosters to elderly and vulnerable population.
 
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SLVRBK

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To hopefully add some nuance, there are potentially two related questions here at the heart of why people ask if natural immunity is stronger, though both have roughly the same conclusion.

1) is it better to get vaccinated or catch COVID naturally if I'm young and healthy?
Answer is a resounding, get vaccinated. It's safer and has more reliable immune response. Much of the data on immune response from catching COVID are among those with symptoms, sometimes even moderate or more. If you have very mild or asymptomatic responses, you may not achieve the level seen in many recent studies. So, higher risk and really unknown probability of benefits.

2) Do I need to get vaccinated after catching COVID since I probably had a robust immune response?
The answer is still get vaccinated. It still massively boosts your immune response even if you've had it before and even if you have detectable antibodies.

I'm not telling you anything new, but wanted to add the questions that seem to be behind the natural immunity vs vaccine questions.
Came across this article today on difference between Hybrid Immunity and Super Immunity…I had never heard of Super Immunity but am interested in Hybrid Immunity since I have had Covid and Pfizer
https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/14/researchers-superhuman-immunity-covid-19/

Researchers Say Some People Have Developed ‘Superhuman Immunity’ Against COVID-19

“If you’ve been infected then you can take comfort in knowing on top of that infection, you can boost your immune response with a vaccine. You can create a level of immune response that’s remarkable,” Dr. Mohanakrishnan said.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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How else are they going to monetize annual booster shots?

:D
That is very true --- thought the same thing. Pfizer and Moderna do have an enormous financial incentive to get boosters approved.
Interesting to read in the CNN article (top headline on cnn.com right now) below that "The reports, all published in the New England Journal of Medicine, are being used by Pfizer and by some federal officials to support the argument that most people will need booster doses starting around six months after they are initially vaccinated."

Three reports support arguments for booster doses of Pfizer's Covid-19 vaccine - CNN
 

kaboy42

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How else are they going to monetize annual booster shots?

:D
How long is the US govt/tax dollar gonna foot the bill for vaccination and/or testing?*




(*I'm assuming that Biden's proposal that all companies larger than 100 employees have all of their employees vaccinated or tested regularly, that the cost will then be shifted to the company... but have no idea).
 

osupsycho

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Everyone seems to be missing a big part of this discussion on vaccinated vs immunity from infection. The vaccine was originally designed to just keep an infection from becoming severe and causing a hospitalization and/or death. As it turned out the vaccines were highly effective as keeping you from getting the virus in the first place, or I should say were before the Delta variant showed up. However even with Delta the vaccine is still effective at its original intent considering that around 96% of hospitalizations/death now are from non vaccinated (and around another 3% that are vaccinated have 3 or more underlying conditions). So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.
 
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How long is the US govt/tax dollar gonna foot the bill for vaccination and/or testing?*




(*I'm assuming that Biden's proposal that all companies larger than 100 employees have all of their employees vaccinated or tested regularly, that the cost will then be shifted to the company... but have no idea).
Vaccines for the foreseeable future will still be covered by the feds. I don't think anyone knows where testing dollars are coming from. It's one of the reasons I'm not a fan. It's an unfunded mandate at a time when testing access is much smaller than it was and can be expensive if insurance doesn't cover it. On the flipside, if it pushes us to adopt more of the super cheap, rapid tests that are being used several places in Europe, that could be a nice secondary effect.
 

gogetumpoke

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Everyone seems to be missing a big part of this discussion on vaccinated vs immunity from infection. The vaccine was originally designed to just keep an infection from becoming severe and causing a hospitalization and/or death. As it turned out the vaccines were highly effective as keeping you from getting the virus in the first place, or I should say were before the Delta variant showed up. However even with Delta the vaccine is still effective at its original intent considering that around 96% of hospitalizations/death now are from non vaccinated (and around another 3% that are vaccinated have 3 or more underlying conditions). So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.

? Are we sure about this?
 

RxCowboy

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3. The experience of waning hasn't been duplicated in other surveys, including in Israel. We don't know why they saw that in their early vaccinations.
mask
So, Pfizer and Moderna are both wrong in their assessment that their vaccine wanes over time?
Haven't seen their proprietary data.

Note: the latter comparator group in Israel has not yet shown waning.

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RxCowboy

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Everyone seems to be missing a big part of this discussion on vaccinated vs immunity from infection. The vaccine was originally designed to just keep an infection from becoming severe and causing a hospitalization and/or death. As it turned out the vaccines were highly effective as keeping you from getting the virus in the first place, or I should say were before the Delta variant showed up. However even with Delta the vaccine is still effective at its original intent considering that around 96% of hospitalizations/death now are from non vaccinated (and around another 3% that are vaccinated have 3 or more underlying conditions). So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.

? Are we sure about this?
Yes. You have to survive the infection to reach natural immunity.

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gogetumpoke

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Yes. You have to survive the infection to reach natural immunity.

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:facepalm:No s**t? I know I'm going to regret this but here goes. I'm interpreting his statement to mean that if I had covid, (and survived:woot:) , the natural immunity gained from that infection does not help in stopping a subsequent infection or death.
 

RxCowboy

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Yes. You have to survive the infection to reach natural immunity.

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I'm a survivor does that mean I don't have to play vaccine roulette?
I am a survivor too and still took the Vax because the Israeli data showed that Vax x2+survivor is the best protected group. So, if you were smart...

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