Covid-19

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Mar 11, 2006
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I realize we're hijacking the thread and I don't want to get into a long drawn-out tussle over this here. My major point is that these allegations weren't loony and they aren't the reason for divisiveness today, as much as BayArea would like us to believe. I've heard people compare this to QAnon, and they're not even in the same ballpark.

Here's more from the Senate Intelligence Committee headed by Marco Rubio (not Rachel Maddow or MSM):
Manafort, who was later convicted for financial fraud crimes, briefed Russian intelligence officer Konstantin Kilimnik on the campaign's polling data and how the Trump campaign sought to beat Hillary Clinton in the presidential election.

Manafort's connection with Kilimnik was a "grave counterintelligence threat," the report reads, adding that it found evidence the Russian intelligence officer may have been linked to the Russian government's efforts to hack and leak Democratic Party emails.
You are right, we are hijacking the thread ... so no more replies about Russia for me, but since you mentioned Rubio...this was Rubio's quote after the Senate Intelligence Committee completed their investigation "The Committee found no evidence that then-candidate Donald Trump or his campaign colluded with the Russian government."
 
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May 31, 2007
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Loons. Especially that bipartisan Senate Committee.


Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort passed internal Trump campaign information to a Russian intelligence officer during the 2016 election, a new bipartisan Senate report concludes.

The findings draw a direct line between the president's former campaign chairman and Russian intelligence during the 2016 campaign.
I said the people that still believe it are loons. I seriously doubt you still believe it.
 

TheMonkey

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You are right, we are hijacking the thread ... so no more replies about Russia for me, but since you mentioned Rubio...this was Rubio's quote after the Senate Intelligence Committee completed their investigation "The Committee found no evidence that then-candidate Donald Trump or his campaign colluded with the Russian government."
I said the people that still believe it are loons. I seriously doubt you still believe it.
We would have to get into the details of what I specifically believe. Basically, I believe what is in the report happened, no matter how Rubio spun it. If you don't have time to read it straight from the Senate website, here are a few clips.
Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 12.40.34 PM.png
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Source: https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/report_volume5.pdf

The summary of counterintelligence concerns regarding Manafort start on page 27. It doesn't take long to see evidence of collusion by the chairman and chief strategist of Trump's campaign. The section linking Kilimnik to the Russia hacks is pretty much redacted. The implication is there is evidence for that as well.

Guess I'm a loon.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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We would have to get into the details of what I specifically believe. Basically, I believe what is in the report happened, no matter how Rubio spun it. If you don't have time to read it straight from the Senate website, here are a few clips.
View attachment 89759 View attachment 89760
View attachment 89761
Source: https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/report_volume5.pdf

The summary of counterintelligence concerns regarding Manafort start on page 27. It doesn't take long to see evidence of collusion by the chairman and chief strategist of Trump's campaign. The section linking Kilimnik to the Russia hacks is pretty much redacted. The implication is there is evidence for that as well.

Guess I'm a loon.
I don't think you are a loon. But anyone who believes this anywhere came near validating the 2 1/2 year investigation, and the daily/hourly breathless reports on MSM (your first bullet is about Manafort meeting someone a decade before the campaign) --- is on the same partisan thinking level of those desperately wanting to believe the conspiracy of Seth Rich is meaningful. Or those awaiting Hunter's laptop.
 
May 31, 2007
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I dont think you are a loon. But if you believe this anywhere came near validating the 2 1/2 year investigation, daily/hourly breathless reports on MSM (your first bullet is about Manafort meeting someone a decade before the campaign) --- than you are on the same thinking level of those desperately wanting to believe the conspiracy of Seth Rich is meaningful. Or those awaiting Hunter's laptop.
I don’t think anyone sane buys into the Russia collusion narrative that was being pushed by the MSM but you will find plenty of people who will try to validate why they were duped in the first place. And I honestly understand that part of it. These people spent years clutching their pearls over it so you will never hear them say “yeah I was duped and wrong all along”. They look really foolish and gullible and they know it. But I think we all know the score at this point. I’ll leave it at that.
 

ramases2112

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I don't think you are a loon. But anyone who believes this anywhere came near validating the 2 1/2 year investigation, and the daily/hourly breathless reports on MSM (your first bullet is about Manafort meeting someone a decade before the campaign) --- is on the same partisan thinking level of those desperately wanting to believe the conspiracy of Seth Rich is meaningful. Or those awaiting Hunter's laptop.
The guy is a complete loon. Not much more can be said. He is still trying to justify his insane conspiracy theories after his lunatic groups 2 year investigation.
 

TheMonkey

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I don’t think anyone sane buys into the Russia collusion narrative that was being pushed by the MSM but you will find plenty of people who will try to validate why they were duped in the first place. And I honestly understand that part of it. These people spent years clutching their pearls over it so you will never hear them say “yeah I was duped and wrong all along”. They look really foolish and gullible and they know it. But I think we all know the score at this point. I’ll leave it at that.
You can keep up the ad hominems (loony, not sane) if you want, but I’m not biting. I just posted a link to the report and excerpts that back up what I stated. No logical fallacies needed.
 

TheMonkey

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I don't think you are a loon. But anyone who believes this anywhere came near validating the 2 1/2 year investigation, and the daily/hourly breathless reports on MSM (your first bullet is about Manafort meeting someone a decade before the campaign) --- is on the same partisan thinking level of those desperately wanting to believe the conspiracy of Seth Rich is meaningful. Or those awaiting Hunter's laptop.
The first excerpt also stated Manafort was paid tens of millions of dollars by those oligarchs over the next 10 years.

And I’m not partisan. As I’ve stated in here many times, I’m a lifelong Republican.
 

wrenhal

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Almost 1/3 of the general population also.

https://globalizationandhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12992-020-00589-w

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If you read the actual study, they found significant differences between covid patients and other respiratory infections (flu, pneumonia, strep). So, it wasn't a "general population" effect because they controlled for that.

https://www.thelancet.com/action/sh...YvkKYu0QnF2yQSgOxgqc0q92JR-3hzN78KnXB9EIMAOLw

Most diagnostic categories were more common in patients who had COVID-19 than in those who had influenza (hazard ratio [HR] 1·44, 95% CI 1·40–1·47, for any diagnosis; 1·78, 1·68–1·89, for any first diagnosis) and those who had other respiratory tract infections (1·16, 1·14–1·17, for any diagnosis; 1·32, 1·27–1·36, for any first diagnosis).​
Are you misunderstanding what I posted? I was posting an article dealing with the fact that the general population had higher levels of mental health/stress issues, not just covid patients.

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steross

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IMO, there's a big difference between a public health official addressing the general public during a deadly global pandemic and the military releasing classified information that puts soldiers at risk. I'm not arguing that PPE shouldn't have been preserved for frontline workers like you, but misleading the public was the wrong way to do it.

If you're okay with public health officials misleading the public, you've also got to be okay with the public refusing to follow their recommendations out of mistrust.
"There is a big difference" Why? I've been both. I can tell you the pit in my stomach was feeling the same as both. There is no big difference.

"I'm not arguing that PPE shouldn't have been saved" That is exactly what you are arguing. Nobody had a better way to do it. Do you think there was a better alternative and he just decided he would rather tell people that they didn't need masks yet for fun? Hell, we couldn't even prevent hoarding of toilet paper. You are simply blowing smoke. Which is easy to do when it isn't your life at risk for your concern about not getting the full truth.

This is by far the most disappointing conversation I have ever had with you. Frankly, I am amazed at the selfishness. I really do not think you comprehend what we went through. Watch people gasping for air all day then stand at the trunk of your car late at night after work trying to save plastic masks and shoe covers to reuse hoping you don't mess up and spread it to your family. But, yeah, I really feel for you getting told information that turned out to be partially inaccurate.

And, if getting told partially incorrect information for the good of the nation and to save lives makes people not follow public health advice then those people are selfish, unAmerican twits. No, I am not OK with that at all.
 

steross

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So Fauci's misleading comments are justified, but his word should be taken as gospel because he had good intentions?

This is precisely why he lost credibility with alot of people months ago.
Again, because the Generals didn't tell you when we attacked you aren't going to believe them when they are explaining how the war effort is going?
He lost credibility because some people are partisan and follow the words of the former president and accept his follies but expect honesty and perfection from Fauci in the face of a new problem. If Trump hadn't turned on him (like he has nearly everyone that takes any of his spotlight) then this conversation would not even be happening.
 

LS1 Z28

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Oct 30, 2007
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"There is a big difference" Why? I've been both. I can tell you the pit in my stomach was feeling the same as both. There is no big difference.

"I'm not arguing that PPE shouldn't have been saved" That is exactly what you are arguing. Nobody had a better way to do it. Do you think there was a better alternative and he just decided he would rather tell people that they didn't need masks yet for fun? Hell, we couldn't even prevent hoarding of toilet paper. You are simply blowing smoke. Which is easy to do when it isn't your life at risk for your concern about not getting the full truth.

This is by far the most disappointing conversation I have ever had with you. Frankly, I am amazed at the selfishness. I really do not think you comprehend what we went through. Watch people gasping for air all day then stand at the trunk of your car late at night after work trying to save plastic masks and shoe covers to reuse hoping you don't mess up and spread it to your family. But, yeah, I really feel for you getting told information that turned out to be partially inaccurate.

And, if getting told partially incorrect information for the good of the nation and to save lives makes people not follow public health advice then those people are selfish, unAmerican twits. No, I am not OK with that at all.
You're looking at this from far too narrow of a lens. Let me share my perspective. I've known people from the health care industry that have benefited from this decision, but I've also known people that have laid family members to rest prior to the mask guidance changing, and they can't help but wonder if they would still be here if it weren't for the misinformation.

Despite what I've seen, I still believe that we should've done everything we could to preserve PPE for health care professionals, because they were on the front lines putting their lives on the line every day. I just don't think we should've done it through disinformation. We should've threatened hefty prison sentences for anyone hoarding PPE. That would've gone a long way towards curtailing the hoarding without having the nasty side effect of eroding trust in public health agencies.

I've always been a strongly independent thinker. I believe that we all have a responsibility to search for the truth and form our own opinions. To put it bluntly, I don't want to be a sheep that blindly follows anyone. The past year has put me in a very difficult position, because I no longer trust the data that's being put out by our public health officials. Why would I trust it after they've proven that they'll "move the goal posts" if they feel it's for the greater good?

Be careful judging people without walking in their shoes. I don't know what you've been through, but you don't know what I've been through either. I can guarantee you that you wouldn't think I was selfish if you did.
 

steross

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You're looking at this from far too narrow of a lens. Let me share my perspective. I've known people from the health care industry that have benefited from this decision, but I've also known people that have laid family members to rest prior to the mask guidance changing, and they can't help but wonder if they would still be here if it weren't for the misinformation.
I can guarantee you that health care workers were getting sick and/or about to call it quits because they simply could not get us even the basics of protection. If you somehow think that no healthcare was going to save their lives (even though it was shown that the highest death rates by far were in the places that the health care system could not keep up) then I don't know what to tell you. Having sick health care workers does not save lives.

And, if you personally knew one of the 7000 people (43 in Oklahoma) that had died prior to the mask guidance changing then I'm sorry that happened, but in no way would a free-for-all of mask hoarding would have improved that outcome. I can tell you it was one of us with a probably three-day-old mask on trying to save them. My wife's grandmother died of covid a week before her vaccination. Should I wonder if the Trump Admin had ramped up vaccination as fast as Biden has have saved her? Of course not.

Finally, it isn't even like what was said was disinformation. This was what the CDC website said: “If you are not sick you do not need to wear a facemask unless you are caring for someone who is sick (and they are not able to wear a facemask). Facemasks may be in short supply and they should be saved for caregivers.” All of which was true for public health even if not true for lowering the personal risk of that particular individual. Public health, not individual health. Only when the pandemic continued to worsen and the supply was improving did it change. Their mistake was not telling people to use a simple cloth face cover. But, that was an error of knowledge, not an error of deceit.
 
Jul 25, 2018
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Again, because the Generals didn't tell you when we attacked you aren't going to believe them when they are explaining how the war effort is going?
He lost credibility because some people are partisan and follow the words of the former president and accept his follies but expect honesty and perfection from Fauci in the face of a new problem. If Trump hadn't turned on him (like he has nearly everyone that takes any of his spotlight) then this conversation would not even be happening.
This is your assumption about a portion of the people he lost credibility with, and that's all.

There are actually people like me, who didn't vote for Trump either time, but still have a problem with Fauci's handling of this at times. It's possible to have that point of view.
 

Rack

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All human beings are hypocrites, because of the nature of man, one cannot live without having that issue. Fauci at the baseball game was Fauci being human, Dr. Fauci changing his tune every now and then is also a by-product of talking all the time and sharing ones thoughts (same as the former POTUS). This was an ever changing pandemic and nothing any of us have prepared for. I believe we should give all the leaders on every side of the isle who guided us through it a semi pass. This includes former POTUS Trump, POTUS Biden, Dr. Fauci, et all. healing requires forgiveness not only in our personal lives, but in our deeply felt opinions. It's easy to blame someone else during these times but it's more important that we bond together in unity in order to end this thing. The biggest problem in this pandemic and in the USA as a whole is our lack of unity, love, and understanding. Carry on.

Btw, the USA, remarkably over the span of the past several months, has given out 187 Million doses of the vaccine...average pace of 3.14 MILLION a day! This is credit to scientist, politicians, public health leaders and every person who talks kindly to their neighbors to convince them to get it. The more people we know who aren't getting the shot, the more we need to be loving vaccine advocates for it.
 
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Boomer.....

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Feb 15, 2007
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Chinese COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness 'not high,' government exploring options: officials

China's coronavirus vaccines may not provide the appropriate protection, with the government exploring options to try and boost efficacy as additional vaccines enter clinical trials.

In a rare admission from a normally tight-lipped government, Chinese health officials admitted that the vaccines "don't have very high protective rates."

"It's now under formal consideration whether we should use different vaccines from different technical lines for the immunization process," China Centers for Disease Control director Gao Fu said at a conference Saturday.

Drug companies Sinopharm and Sinovac were the leading producers for China's vaccine efforts, with their products exported to 22 countries including Mexico, Turkey, Indonesia, Brazil and Turkey.
 

Jostate

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Chinese COVID-19 vaccine effectiveness 'not high,' government exploring options: officials

China's coronavirus vaccines may not provide the appropriate protection, with the government exploring options to try and boost efficacy as additional vaccines enter clinical trials.

In a rare admission from a normally tight-lipped government, Chinese health officials admitted that the vaccines "don't have very high protective rates."

"It's now under formal consideration whether we should use different vaccines from different technical lines for the immunization process," China Centers for Disease Control director Gao Fu said at a conference Saturday.

Drug companies Sinopharm and Sinovac were the leading producers for China's vaccine efforts, with their products exported to 22 countries including Mexico, Turkey, Indonesia, Brazil and Turkey.
According to the numbers they have provided to the international tracking organizations they only have had about 3 deaths per million citizens anyway so it shouldn't be a problem.
 
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