Covid-19

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Rack

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The reason for the pause is because the treatment for the very rare issue requires a very unique treatment plan to treat the issue. They are working to put together guidelines, treatment plan if this happens so Doctors know what to look for and how to treat this issue. They don't want to keep giving shots without Dr.'s having a clear treatment plan of how to treat someone who does suffer the rare event

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Ok, but in doing so, are they "saying" the risk of the sever covid 19 virus to a person getting J&J is less than this blood clotting issue? Sorry, just a skeptics question. While I understand what you just said, and since we have other vaccines it's likely not a HUGE deal, J&J could be one of the biggest factors in getting it done faster because it's only one shot, can be stored without much effort and used all around the world efficiently. While it's slightly less effective, it should give other nations specifically the needed boost to get things moving again for their health and economies. I was hopeful that it could really help the developing world. AstraZeneca was paused in parts of Europe several weeks back for the same reason...can't they just look at that research?
 

Boomer.....

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I agree with Rack. There were going to be some very, very slight risks associated with these vaccines, but halting J&J will only put a negative perception around it in peoples minds. There were some adverse reactions to Pfizer and Moderna, yet you don't see them stopped.
 

Boomer.....

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FYI - my wife got her second Pfizer shot Sunday and woke up today with a knot on her collarbone. At first it had me worried with the stories of blood clots, but a quick Google search told me that it's a swelling of the lymph node which is a common reaction to the vaccine. It can be on the collarbone or in the arm pit and essentially let's you know the vaccine is working and your body's immune system is reacting to it.
 

Binman4OSU

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Ok, but in doing so, are they "saying" the risk of the sever covid 19 virus to a person getting J&J is less than this blood clotting issue? Sorry, just a skeptics question. While I understand what you just said, and since we have other vaccines it's likely not a HUGE deal, J&J could be one of the biggest factors in getting it done faster because it's only one shot, can be stored without much effort and used all around the world efficiently. While it's slightly less effective, it should give other nations specifically the needed boost to get things moving again for their economies. I was hopeful that it could really help the developing world.
Think of it this way.

This rare blood clot event...what if it takes a specific type of test to discover, or a specialized piece of equipment to treat, or a special type of blood thinner that isn't generally widely stocked or say 50% of Dr's have never attempted the type of treatment plan needed.

This is why the pause is needed. They aren't saying ANYTHING about the risk of the clotting being greater than COVID....they are saying the clotting risk is very small and we are going to keep using J&J, but we are putting together a treatment plan that Dr's can study so if this happens to you when we give you the J&J shot, they know how to stop it.

Pausing and saying we are putting together a treatment plan for this side effect...means we are going to start it again but with a plan to help you if you have a reaction.

Now had they announced a Pause with no other info then skeptics should chime in
 
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Think of it this way.

This rare blood clot event...what if it takes a specific type of test to discover, or a specialized piece of equipment to treat, or a special type of blood thinner that isn't generally widely stocked or say 50% of Dr's have never attempted the type of treatment plan needed.

This is why the pause is needed. They aren't saying ANYTHING about the risk of the clotting being greater than COVID....they are saying the clotting risk is very small and we are going to keep using J&J, but we are putting together a treatment plan that Dr's can study so if this happens to you when we give you the J&J shot, they know how to stop it.

Pausing and saying we are putting together a treatment plan for this side effect...means we are going to start it again but with a plan to help you if you have a reaction.

Now had they announced a Pause with no other info then skeptics should chime in
That all is fairly true, but the pause likely just killed J&J acceptability and it was already suffering problems from some religious conservatives who object to it over the fetal cell lines used in some of its initial development. Catholic groups had already put out guidance to not take it if anything else is available. It was likely unavoidable, but the pause just gave ammo to the anti vaxxers.
 
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It's grasping for straws at this point to say we have a "rising case count," the manipulations of the case count numbers and all the false positives and multiple testing of persons (I have had five myself over time with four negatives and one false positive). It's to the point that case count is mind numbing, it's also THE reason the USA has the most positive cases in the world (we test nearly EVERYONE and more than once). We should JUST be looking at confirmed hospitalizations and deaths at this point...at least in order to draw any conclusions as lay people anyway.
I agree for the most part. A bump in positive cases of 20/day isn't anything to get worried about especially in a state where 70+% of seniors have at least one shot. Those cases should not translate into hospitalizations. People are going out and that's going to increase cases, but definitely no reason to suspect that the increase will put the hospitals under the strain they were a few months ago.
 

Rack

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Think of it this way.

This rare blood clot event...what if it takes a specific type of test to discover, or a specialized piece of equipment to treat, or a special type of blood thinner that isn't generally widely stocked or say 50% of Dr's have never attempted the type of treatment plan needed.

This is why the pause is needed. They aren't saying ANYTHING about the risk of the clotting being greater than COVID....they are saying the clotting risk is very small and we are going to keep using J&J, but we are putting together a treatment plan that Dr's can study so if this happens to you when we give you the J&J shot, they know how to stop it.

Pausing and saying we are putting together a treatment plan for this side effect...means we are going to start it again but with a plan to help you if you have a reaction.

Now had they announced a Pause with no other info then skeptics should chime in
I understand that, but the skeptics won't and they will chime in anyway...it just adds validity to their arguments in their minds. Do we not already have treatments for blood clotting? Didn't the AstraZeneca event teach J&J anything? Honestly it seem excessive to "pause" it and report on a big pause...why not just say we have a treatment for this VERY VERY rare event and move on. AND if we don't have a treatment for blood clots...why are we so slow? My point is that NO pause should have been needed...skeptics are going to say its more than the very very rare blood clots or they wouldn't need a pause. I know these people, I work with them, I pray with them, I live life with them...it just makes it all the more likely they will NOT get the shot. It's going to be made into a HUGE deal by the press when it's absolutely NOTHING.
 

Binman4OSU

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I understand that, but the skeptics won't and they will chime in anyway...it just adds validity to their arguments in their minds. Do we not already have treatments for blood clotting? Didn't the AstraZeneca event teach J&J anything? Honestly it seem excessive to "pause" it and report on a big pause...why not just say we have a treatment for this VERY VERY rare event and move on. AND if we don't have a treatment for blood clots...why are we so slow? My point is that NO pause should have been needed...skeptics are going to say its more than the very very rare blood clots or they wouldn't need a pause. I know these people, I work with them, I pray with them, I live life with them...it just makes it all the more likely they will NOT get the shot.
The issue here is the most common treatment for blood clots is Heparin, and administering Heparin for this condition actually makes it WORSE.

That said.

COVID 19 causes blood clots in 16.5% of its cases. I think the risk with the J&J shot FAR outweigh the risks of COVID 19
 

steross

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Now had they announced a Pause with no other info then skeptics should chime in
It doesn't matter what is done and what the reasons are the internet experts are going to chime in. Despite being armed with 1% of the info and no expertise, they will claim they know how to do it better.

Here is the anti vax position. Blood clots, FDA doesn't halt, ITS A COVERUP! Blood clots, FDA halts, SEE WE TOLD YOU IT WAS DANGEROUS AND THEY FINALLY LISTENED! Expecting people who have staked out a position based on faulty logic to suddenly use logic to process new information isn't logical.

This halt has nothing to do with those people and should not be based on what it does to their delusions. I suspect it is for coordination. We have 3 vaccines. We have age and sex based populations with different risks of covid and different risks of VITT. The halt is to figure out then plan the safest, most effective way to utilize those resources while minimizing potential harm. Full speed ahead! sounds great until it is your wife with the stroke from the clot in her brain and all it would have taken to prevent it is better government coordination of who gets what vaccine.
 

Binman4OSU

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This halt has nothing to do with those people and should not be based on what it does to their delusions. I suspect it is for coordination. We have 3 vaccines. We have age and sex based populations with different risks of covid and different risks of VITT. The halt is to figure out then plan the safest, most effective way to utilize those resources while minimizing potential harm. Full speed ahead! sounds great until it is your wife with the stroke from the clot in her brain and all it would have taken to prevent it is better government coordination of who gets what vaccine.
you think a temp restriction on females under the age of 50 an no pause would have been a better path? I think that could have been a less "alarmist" manner of doing this. The issue has only presented in Women getting the J&J shot and they were all under 50. Maybe just limit that group from taking J&J and not issue a full on Pause on giving it to everyone would have been a much more effective way to communicate this.
 

steross

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you think a temp restriction on females under the age of 50 an no pause would have been a better path? I think that could have been a less "alarmist" manner of doing this. The issue has only presented in Women getting the J&J shot and they were all under 50. Maybe just limit that group from taking J&J and not issue a full on Pause on giving it to everyone would have been a much more effective way to communicate this.
This issue is not only women. It is more common in women. It has only happened in people under 50 so far in with this vaccine. But, the same PF4 autoantibody happens in HIT in all age groups. So I would guess one of the things they are trying to figure out if this is truly a younger person issue or is that just who has happened to be affected so far.

Sometimes, when riding in an airplane, I am looking out the window and can see the airport. To me, looks like we could easily just go straight down and land. But, sometimes we veer right for a while. Then come around and land. I don't go knock on the cabin door and suggest to the pilot that based on my info, the plane could have landed 5 minutes earlier. I don't complain on the internet that the airlines are stupidly wasting fuel/time. I trust that the people with the real info and expertise are doing what is in their judgment the best thing. It is sad how everyone now thinks they know better when I can see by the things they write that they are making judgments on the most superficial of information.
 

Rack

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I agree for the most part. A bump in positive cases of 20/day isn't anything to get worried about especially in a state where 70+% of seniors have at least one shot. Those cases should not translate into hospitalizations. People are going out and that's going to increase cases, but definitely no reason to suspect that the increase will put the hospitals under the strain they were a few months ago.
I'd think, it actually might be good to have low increases in cases in order to gain even more immunity...but I'm not a scientist and I don't think we want to get it that way...would be FAR better to get the shot asap.
 

Rack

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The issue here is the most common treatment for blood clots is Heparin, and administering Heparin for this condition actually makes it WORSE.

That said.

COVID 19 causes blood clots in 16.5% of its cases. I think the risk with the J&J shot FAR outweigh the risks of COVID 19
I think you mean "the risk covid 19 blood clots without the J&J shot FAR outweigh the risk of them with it?"
 

Rack

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This issue is not only women. It is more common in women. It has only happened in people under 50 so far in with this vaccine. But, the same PF4 autoantibody happens in HIT in all age groups. So I would guess one of the things they are trying to figure out if this is truly a younger person issue or is that just who has happened to be affected so far.

Sometimes, when riding in an airplane, I am looking out the window and can see the airport. To me, looks like we could easily just go straight down and land. But, sometimes we veer right for a while. Then come around and land. I don't go knock on the cabin door and suggest to the pilot that based on my info, the plane could have landed 5 minutes earlier. I don't complain on the internet that the airlines are stupidly wasting fuel/time. I trust that the people with the real info and expertise are doing what is in their judgment the best thing. It is sad how everyone now thinks they know better when I can see by the things they write that they are making judgments on the most superficial of information.
It's a good analogy, however, as a contrarian I have to point out a few things...

We have been told over and over and over that the air we are flying in is hyper dangerous, so dangerous that we need to get to the ground very rapidly or we could die OR at least never see our friends and relative again and have to wear mask for the rest of our lives and never travel in that air again...Then, right when it looks like we are landing from this LONG dangerous flight, the pilot sees a little pebble on the runway...one that can likely be removed by ground crew with zero delay's, even though he saw one guy trip over it...So, because of this little rock, he announces to ALL the passengers that he has decided to stay longer in the hyper dangerous air because of a tiny rock on the runway that ground crew stumbled over. So, no one should question that?
 

Binman4OSU

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It's a good analogy, however, as a contrarian I have to point out a few things...

We have been told over and over and over that the air we are flying in is hyper dangerous, so dangerous that we need to get to the ground very rapidly or we could die OR at least never see our friends and relative again and have to wear mask for the rest of our lives and never travel in that air again...Then, right when it looks like we are landing from this LONG dangerous flight, the pilot sees a little pebble on the runway...one that can likely be removed by ground crew with zero delay's, even though he saw one guy trip over it...So, because of this little rock, he announces to ALL the passengers that he has decided to stay longer in the hyper dangerous air because of a tiny rock on the runway that ground crew stumbled over. So, no one should question that?
in your scenario you act as if the plane MUST land with the pebble on the runway.

Basically where the FDA and CDC are now, are telling the ground crew how to go out and remove the pebble to prevent any future delays from the pebble.

Land one plane now or remove the pebble and land all the planes. Tough call.
 

Rack

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in your scenario you act as if the plane MUST land with the pebble on the runway.

Basically where the FDA and CDC are now, are telling the ground crew how to go out and remove the pebble to prevent any future delays from the pebble.

Land one plane now or remove the pebble and land all the planes. Tough call.
It depends on how dangerous being in the air is...I don't have an issue with this, I'm just commenting that it's likely going to make it even harder to convince some of my friends to get the shot now...I felt I was getting close with several who haven't yet gotten it. We need vaccine advocates and this makes it even more difficult. So while I appreciate the honesty and them being careful, I hope the good they do outweighs the cost of the delay. I also don't have a problem with people randomly questioning it....because it seems counter productive on the surface to some of us and that communication helps to clear up those questions. We need pastors and community leaders to advocate for the vaccine and this likely delays some of that as well.
 

steross

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It's a good analogy, however, as a contrarian I have to point out a few things...

We have been told over and over and over that the air we are flying in is hyper dangerous, so dangerous that we need to get to the ground very rapidly or we could die OR at least never see our friends and relative again and have to wear mask for the rest of our lives and never travel in that air again...Then, right when it looks like we are landing from this LONG dangerous flight, the pilot sees a little pebble on the runway...one that can likely be removed by ground crew with zero delay's, even though he saw one guy trip over it...So, because of this little rock, he announces to ALL the passengers that he has decided to stay longer in the hyper dangerous air because of a tiny rock on the runway that ground crew stumbled over. So, no one should question that?
I wasn't trying to make an analogy that a flight is like fighting a pandemic, only providing an example of the reaction of the public to the actions of the people who know what they are doing. And, your analog takes it to falsehood. People have and will die from this complication. It isn't a simple pebble to be removed with no bad effects. Again, you are providing a perfect example of people trying to think their judgment is more logical than the knowledgable based on superficial information.
My point is that NO pause should have been needed...
This isn't "questioning." You are making statements as if you have enough knowledge to make better judgments on the situation than the authorities do.
 

Binman4OSU

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if you have an appt for J&J now...keep it. OSDH said they are making arrangements to have these switched to Moderna or Pfizer shots or will call to resched you if they can't get those shots to the sched location.

https://twitter.com/KOCODillon/status/1381988372650987524