Giuliani Calls for Massive Military Build Up To Take On China and Russia

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State

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#41
A guy at work thinks socialized medicine is the way to go. He says, "we're living socialized medicine because we're in the military and isn't it great?" What he doesn't see though, is 300million people are paying for the 2million or so of us active and retired to get that medical care. If all 300million were to get the same medical care we do, who would pay for it? The costs would be astronomical, even more so than your Medicare numbers. You're right that we need to figure out the mess we're in now instead of talking about expanding it.
 

RoVerto Solo

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#42
The average American would have better medical care if there was socialization. I think if their is anything on earth that should be socialized is our right to live a healthful and painless life equally.

What gives one man with money the right to burden the health system more than one without it?
 

State

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#43
The average American would have better medical care if there was socialization. I think if their is anything on earth that should be socialized is our right to live a healthful and painless life equally.

What gives one man with money the right to burden the health system more than one without it?
I don't agree with your assumption that socialized medicine is better on average than what we have now, but I'm off to bed and don't have time to respond to that.

I will say that no other man has a greater right to the work that I do than me. That's what socialism comes down to. Taking something of yours to give to someone else.

Anyone can join the military and get the benefits that I have. Anyone can take out student loans and go to college like I did. Anyone can choose not to have cable tv, buy booze, cigarettes, a big ass truck, or have more kids than they can afford and instead buy health insurance like I will next year. We are free in this country. Free to make smart choices and stupid ones. Those of us who make smart choices shouldn't have to carry the rest on our backs.
 

steross

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#44
The average American would have better medical care if there was socialization. I think if their is anything on earth that should be socialized is our right to live a healthful and painless life equally.

What gives one man with money the right to burden the health system more than one without it?
Why not the legal system, too? What gives OJ the right to hire the finest lawyers money can buy which saved him from life in prison when a poor man would never have had that much representation? Isn't having your life taken by potentially unjust imprisonment just as bad as from poor medical care?
 

RoVerto Solo

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#45
Why not the legal system, too? What gives OJ the right to hire the finest lawyers money can buy which saved him from life in prison when a poor man would never have had that much representation? Isn't having your life taken by potentially unjust imprisonment just as bad as from poor medical care?
Well sure. Go for it.

I guess there are idiots that ruin their businesses and finances and commit crimes as as well as idiots that smoke, drink and ruin their health.

But remember lawyers are not increasing the cost of legal representation with new technology. They are making it more affordable and low cost legal insurance is available.

It's the doctors that are limiting the number of doctors trained annually. They are the ones finding more and more ways to extend life for those that can afford it and increasing the cost of medical care for everyone else because of it.
 

Donnyboy

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#46
The average American would have better medical care if there was socialization. I think if their is anything on earth that should be socialized is our right to live a healthful and painless life equally.

What gives one man with money the right to burden the health system more than one without it?
Smoking
A number 9B at Short Cakes after a quarter's worth of penny beer
Never EVER engaging in physical activity....

Where do those fit into one's "right" for a healthful painless life.

No one can tell me why they think that turning a highly competitive private business over to government regulation will lower cost and improve product???
I always just here medical costs are rising...
 

Donnyboy

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#47
Well sure. Go for it.

I guess there are idiots that ruin their businesses and finances and commit crimes as as well as idiots that smoke, drink and ruin their health.

But remember lawyers are not increasing the cost of legal representation with new technology. They are making it more affordable and low cost legal insurance is available.

It's the doctors that are limiting the number of doctors trained annually. They are the ones finding more and more ways to extend life for those that can afford it and increasing the cost of medical care for everyone else because of it.
Lawyers aren't increasing the cost of legal representation may be true in part but misleading......

It is a glut of ambulance chasing lawyers that makes it a boderline need for all Americans to have counsel.....that seeks damages on pretty much everything that happens as it is always the deepest pockets fault raising the cost of virutally EVERYTHING.

Ask your local healthcare admin. what percent of her/his budget goes to med. malpractice........then make the statement about new technologies rising the price. I can promise you the typical clinic spent more protecting itself form frivilous lawsuits than on a shiney new machine to EXTEND LIFE last year.


Caveat: I know there are a lot of great lawyers doing great work.
 

RoVerto Solo

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#48
I don't agree with your assumption that socialized medicine is better on average than what we have now, but I'm off to bed and don't have time to respond to that.

I will say that no other man has a greater right to the work that I do than me. That's what socialism comes down to. Taking something of yours to give to someone else.

Anyone can join the military and get the benefits that I have. Anyone can take out student loans and go to college like I did. Anyone can choose not to have cable tv, buy booze, cigarettes, a big ass truck, or have more kids than they can afford and instead buy health insurance like I will next year. We are free in this country. Free to make smart choices and stupid ones. Those of us who make smart choices shouldn't have to carry the rest on our backs.
So you would abolish Social Security, social services and charitable giving to those in need.

Not all people can qualify for military and civil service. We all cannot have government jobs which provide excellent health insurance and retirement benefits. Some of us have to be productive in providing services and goods to the public outside of the government. Sure the government provides needed services, but why should government employees be guaranteed health insurance coverage when there is no guarantee for the average citizen in the United States. There are citizens in this country that are unable to afford health insurance, that can qualify for it or that are even offered it through their employment. Health insurance should not be the responsibility of employers and neither should our governments provide it to a select few that work for that government. We are beyond employment related health insurance coverage now, because of medical insurance sky rocketing costs over the years.

If you have no health insurance, you can not get through the hospital doors for elective surgery. Without that little card many people face a shorten life, because of that closed door. Life should be a social responsibility and not reserved for those of wealth and for those that have obtained certain jobs or work for our government.

Not everyone can suck the government’s bureaucratic teat and look forward to extraordinary retirement benefits and health care. Every citizen of the United States should be able to seek and receive an equal share of the medical and dental care that our country can provide.
 

Donnyboy

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#49
So you would abolish Social Security, social services and charitable giving to those in need.

Not all people can qualify for military and civil service. We all cannot have government jobs which provide excellent health insurance and retirement benefits. Some of us have to be productive in providing services and goods to the public outside of the government. Sure the government provides needed services, but why should government employees be guaranteed health insurance coverage when there is no guarantee for the average citizen in the United States. There are citizens in this country that are unable to afford health insurance, that can qualify for it or that are even offered it through their employment. Health insurance should not be the responsibility of employers and neither should our governments provide it to a select few that work for that government. We are beyond employment related health insurance coverage now, because of medical insurance sky rocketing costs over the years.

If you have no health insurance, you can not get through the hospital doors for elective surgery. Without that little card many people face a shorten life, because of that closed door. Life should be a social responsibility and not reserved for those of wealth and for those that have obtained certain jobs or work for our government.

Not everyone can suck the government’s bureaucratic teat and look forward to extraordinary retirement benefits and health care. Every citizen of the United States should be able to seek and receive an equal share of the medical and dental care that our country can provide.
Legal more often than not I'm with you but this one's different....

So you can't get through the door of the hospital for ELECTIVE surgery without that little card. ELECTIVE surgery is not a right. Where do you propose the line is drawn on elective procedures......perhaps a socialized boob job to create a more healthy image of one's self? Afterall a positive self image is important to one's physical health.

You also have a strange choice of words "bureaucratic teat" because socializing health care would be the implant to end all implants to the bureaucratic teat.

Again if you want to slow the rising costs of medical cost fight for tort reform. Doctors make less now than 15 years ago in many cases.........Insurance is a benefit of a good job not a requirement of an employee.....you know as in you want the best talent you offer the best job, so it's something to WORK FOR a concept that is increasingly shrinking in this country.
 

RoVerto Solo

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#50
Legal more often than not I'm with you but this one's different....

So you can't get through the door of the hospital for ELECTIVE surgery without that little card. ELECTIVE surgery is not a right. Where do you propose the line is drawn on elective procedures......perhaps a socialized boob job to create a more healthy image of one's self? Afterall a positive self image is important to one's physical health.

You also have a strange choice of words "bureaucratic teat" because socializing health care would be the implant to end all implants to the bureaucratic teat.

Again if you want to slow the rising costs of medical cost fight for tort reform. Doctors make less now than 15 years ago in many cases.........Insurance is a benefit of a good job not a requirement of an employee.....you know as in you want the best talent you offer the best job, so it's something to WORK FOR a concept that is increasingly shrinking in this country.
I'm listening.

Is cosmetic surgery covered by most health insurance policies? I do not think so and nor should it be expected except for certain deformities and injuries.

Elective medical care should be a limited right in addition to life threatening situations that require immediate medical care.

Most insurance is affordable because of the insurance of a group and the spreading of the risk of the need for medical care. Insurance is a form of socialization. When you have insurance you are spreading the risk of one over many. Your monthly insurance premiums are paying for the medical care of someone in your group coverage if you have good health. There are unequal demands on the insurance company.

I'm open to some tort reform in the area of medical malpractice. If we can limit the liability in the work place for employers we can certainly do it in other areas of our life.
 

NYC Poke

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#51
Just a note on "elective" surgeries.

When my brother was young and stupid, he was out partying in Dallas. He was crossing Mockingbird Lane on foot, at night, against the light, and was hit by a VW (it totalled the bug). His knee was shattered, he had cuts all over his body, and half of his right eyeball had been cut off. He was refused treatment at several hospitals because he did not have insurance and his injuries were not considered "life-threatening." He didn't receive treatment until my mom got the call from the police, flew down to Dallas, and essentially signed over the house to cover medical expenses.

Was my brother an irresponsible idiot? Yes. But I shudder to think what would have happened to him had my mom been, say, out of town on business.
 

RoVerto Solo

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#52
Just a note on "elective" surgeries.

When my brother was young and stupid, he was out partying in Dallas. He was crossing Mockingbird Lane on foot, at night, against the light, and was hit by a VW (it totalled the bug). His knee was shattered, he had cuts all over his body, and half of his right eyeball had been cut off. He was refused treatment at several hospitals because he did not have insurance and his injuries were not considered "life-threatening." He didn't receive treatment until my mom got the call from the police, flew down to Dallas, and essentially signed over the house to cover medical expenses.

Was my brother an irresponsible idiot? Yes. But I shudder to think what would have happened to him had my mom been, say, out of town on business.
Like I said, one with no card can expect no care at all.
 

steross

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#53
Just a note on "elective" surgeries.

When my brother was young and stupid, he was out partying in Dallas. He was crossing Mockingbird Lane on foot, at night, against the light, and was hit by a VW (it totalled the bug). His knee was shattered, he had cuts all over his body, and half of his right eyeball had been cut off. He was refused treatment at several hospitals because he did not have insurance and his injuries were not considered "life-threatening." He didn't receive treatment until my mom got the call from the police, flew down to Dallas, and essentially signed over the house to cover medical expenses.

Was my brother an irresponsible idiot? Yes. But I shudder to think what would have happened to him had my mom been, say, out of town on business.
How many years ago was this? If it was after 1986 and those hospitals had emergency rooms, then they violated the EMTALA act if your brother had the injuries that you state. "Life threatening" is not the criteria used to define an emergency. Shattered knee and lacerated globe of the eye are clearly emergencies. Those hospitals should have been fined heavily and had their Medicare acceptance revoked which essentially puts them out of business. My ER writes off 20% (but not for a tax deduction!) of our care because of this law. Some are as high as 50%. The reason is that an EMTALA violation is a fear much bigger than malpractice for emergency rooms.

If it was before 1986, the rules have changed and this doesn't typically happen any more. No card does not mean no care, at least for the emergency room.
 

NYC Poke

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#54
How many years ago was this? If it was after 1986 and those hospitals had emergency rooms, then they violated the EMTALA act if your brother had the injuries that you state. "Life threatening" is not the criteria used to define an emergency. Shattered knee and lacerated globe of the eye are clearly emergencies. Those hospitals should have been fined heavily and had their Medicare acceptance revoked which essentially puts them out of business. My ER writes off 20% (but not for a tax deduction!) of our care because of this law. Some are as high as 50%. The reason is that an EMTALA violation is a fear much bigger than malpractice for emergency rooms.

If it was before 1986, the rules have changed and this doesn't typically happen any more. No card does not mean no care, at least for the emergency room.

It was in the late 80s, I think '87 or '88. Definitely after '86. I can't tell you what the rules were then, all I know is what happened to him, rightly or wrongly. I think my parents may have looked into getting a lawyer, but decided not to because they don't roll that way.
 

RoVerto Solo

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#55
How many years ago was this? If it was after 1986 and those hospitals had emergency rooms, then they violated the EMTALA act if your brother had the injuries that you state. "Life threatening" is not the criteria used to define an emergency. Shattered knee and lacerated globe of the eye are clearly emergencies. Those hospitals should have been fined heavily and had their Medicare acceptance revoked which essentially puts them out of business. My ER writes off 20% (but not for a tax deduction!) of our care because of this law. Some are as high as 50%. The reason is that an EMTALA violation is a fear much bigger than malpractice for emergency rooms.

If it was before 1986, the rules have changed and this doesn't typically happen any more. No card does not mean no care, at least for the emergency room.
Isn't it sad that hospitals had such rules and that they had to be forced to care for the injured and dying without the little card. There's just no mercy in the word mercy at times, just mercenary and the money that goes with it.
 

steross

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#56
Well, the law passed in 1986 but you would have to figure that there were many hospitals doing it wrong for a few years after. By and large, it doesn't happen today. That is why illegal immigrants flood our ERs for care. They are not turned away. Interestingly, a lawyer would not have been a ton of help. EMTALA is not malpractice. I suppose the lawyer could have helped in reporting an EMTALA violation, but the fines do not go to the patient. If the doctor refused to see him, there was no malpractice, just an EMTALA violation.
 

NYC Poke

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#57
Well, the law passed in 1986 but you would have to figure that there were many hospitals doing it wrong for a few years after. By and large, it doesn't happen today. That is why illegal immigrants flood our ERs for care. They are not turned away. Interestingly, a lawyer would not have been a ton of help. EMTALA is not malpractice. I suppose the lawyer could have helped in reporting an EMTALA violation, but the fines do not go to the patient. If the doctor refused to see him, there was no malpractice, just an EMTALA violation.
From what I learned in Sicko, shouldn't they be going to Cuba instead?
 

steross

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#59
Isn't it sad that hospitals had such rules and that they had to be forced to care for the injured and dying without the little card. There's just no mercy in the word mercy at times, just mercenary and the money that goes with it.
Isn't it sad that restaurants don't give away free meals to all of the starving, hungry children out there? Isn't it sad that universities don't give free education to all of the deserving students out there that can't afford it?

Before the law, charity care was done at county/charity hospitals. Private hospitals were for profit businesses. The hyperbole about mercy is BS. How merciful is it to be forced out of business and then treat nobody? We have lost 425 ERs in this country in the past 10 years despite huge increases in visits. Why? Because it is a losing proposition to offer expensive care and not get paid for it. And even if you don't get paid, you can still get sued for malpractice. If the government passed a law stating that every restaurant that served soup was also a soup kitchen and had to give away free food how many restaurants would continue to serve soup? Would you call those restaurant owners merciless?
 

RoVerto Solo

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#60
Isn't it sad that restaurants don't give away free meals to all of the starving, hungry children out there? Isn't it sad that universities don't give free education to all of the deserving students out there that can't afford it?

Before the law, charity care was done at county/charity hospitals. Private hospitals were for profit businesses. The hyperbole about mercy is BS. How merciful is it to be forced out of business and then treat nobody? We have lost 425 ERs in this country in the past 10 years despite huge increases in visits. Why? Because it is a losing proposition to offer expensive care and not get paid for it. And even if you don't get paid, you can still get sued for malpractice. If the government passed a law stating that every restaurant that served soup was also a soup kitchen and had to give away free food how many restaurants would continue to serve soup? Would you call those restaurant owners merciless?
I'm not saying hospitals and doctors should not be paid for their services. I just believe their services should be available to all through government sponsored programs. There are programs to feed the needy, but more and more Americans are being denied proper health care daily due to uncontrollable circumstances.