Gives me goosebumps...

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Mar 3, 2004
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#41
It doesn't, but when you live for something and strongly believe in it, it is natural to be willing to do a lot. The difference between some Christian killing someone and Muslims doing it is that Muslims are told it is honorable and encouraged to kill those who don't agree.


And i'm not discussing "nation building" with my comments. I was just kinda thinking out loud about what I think.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#42
It doesn't, but when you live for something and strongly believe in it, it is natural to be willing to do a lot. The difference between some Christian killing someone and Muslims doing it is that Muslims are told it is honorable and encouraged to kill those who don't agree.


And i'm not discussing "nation building" with my comments. I was just kinda thinking out loud about what I think.
Not true. As I explained earlier, the statement speaks to infidels. They have clearly explained the reasons for their attacks none of which are because of Christianity.

And you are discussing nation building even though you don't directly use the phrase. That is one of the reasons that they deem us infidels which is what the Quran speaks about striking out against. It's all intertwined.
 
Mar 3, 2004
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#43
Actually, my comments have nothing to do with nation building. They hate us for more reasons that just nation building. They have hated us for a long time. Like you said, "That is one of the reasons". My comment was kinda like a question of would they turn from none violent in the US to violent if they had significant support in the US.

And what are you talking about "none are because of Christianity"? No one said they were. YOU just compared what they do to a Christian dying for a cause.
 

Jostate

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Jun 24, 2005
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#44
That's a fallacy. Not every Muslim supports what bin Laden did. McVeigh was clearly a terrorist. He absolutely had sympathizers, and I bet a significant portion of his sympathizers probably categorized themselves as Christian.

It's definitely not fair for people to say that as a result all Christians are terrorists. It's not fair to say that Christianity advocates blowing up federal buildings killing innocent people.

I guess my point is that people use "Muslim" and "terrorist" like they are interchangeable terms. I hope the Taliban, Al Qaeda burn in hell. Not Muslims. And I'm pretty sure most people feel the same way (hopefully). Unfortunately I think Americans have been conditioned to think that Muslims are inherently evil and are "terrorists".

I have a simple question for you desertpoke. Which % do you think is higher?

% of Muslims who either like what Bin Laden did, or at least sympathize pretty strongly with his "cause"

OR

% of Christians who like what McVeigh did or sympathize pretty strongly with his "cause"
 
Oct 15, 2005
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#45
I really like most of what Dr. Paul has to say. But, there's one thing that bothers me. In this article, "Ron Paul: Give Peace a Chance", Dr. Paul states that "he could see no possible reason to ever launch military action or initiate a war". I can undestand not initiating a war, but "no possible reason to ever launch military action"?!?!?!? Is he trying to say we should have stayed out of WWII? I agree we should not be policing the world and sending our kids to fight for little things (and false intelligence), but 'no possible reason ever' is a strong statment. I may not be able to vote for him for that reason alone.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#46
I really like most of what Dr. Paul has to say. But, there's one thing that bothers me. In this article, "Ron Paul: Give Peace a Chance", Dr. Paul states that "he could see no possible reason to ever launch military action or initiate a war". I can undestand not initiating a war, but "no possible reason to ever launch military action"?!?!?!? Is he trying to say we should have stayed out of WWII? I agree we should not be policing the world and sending our kids to fight for little things (and false intelligence), but 'no possible reason ever' is a strong statment. I may not be able to vote for him for that reason alone.
Taken out of context. If you watch the video, Paul clearly qualifies his statement by asking "You mean under the current circumstances? No." He's saying that the reasons that we used for going into war (an undeclared war at that) were 9/11, bin Laden ties, WMD's were proven to be false and therefore this war (that was never declared) is completely unjustified.

The more you follow Paul, the more you'll begin to get first hand impressions yourself rather than relying on a reporter to spin it for you. It's unreal how desperate they are.

He then goes on to say that the founding fathers warned of not only foreign attacks, but domestic as well. He says we would go to war against those domestic threats who are attacking our liberties.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#47
I have a simple question for you desertpoke. Which % do you think is higher?

% of Muslims who either like what Bin Laden did, or at least sympathize pretty strongly with his "cause"

OR

% of Christians who like what McVeigh did or sympathize pretty strongly with his "cause"
I don't know how many Muslims supported the way bin Laden attacked. But I know for sure that he absolutely has sympathizers because they feel that the US has been destroying their country, killing their people, stealing their natural resources, and backing their neighbor that they've been fighting holy wars w/ for 1000's of years.

It's very naive to think that the people living in those countries enjoy our presence there.

By the way, I guarantee you that there are also lots of Non-Muslims that may not support the way bin Laden did it, but sympathize with his plight. Whether people on this board care or not, we are held in very low regard internationally. We are viewed as imposing our will and spreading peace and democracy with bombs and guns, and to hell with anybody that doesn't agree with that mindset.

Whether anyone agrees w/ that sentiment is their business, but that is the perception and unfortunately preception is reality.
 

Jostate

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Jun 24, 2005
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#48
I don't know how many Muslims supported the way bin Laden attacked. But I know for sure that he absolutely has sympathizers because they feel that the US has been destroying their country, killing their people, stealing their natural resources, and backing their neighbor that they've been fighting holy wars w/ for 1000's of years.

It's very naive to think that the people living in those countries enjoy our presence there.

By the way, I guarantee you that there are also lots of Non-Muslims that may not support the way bin Laden did it, but sympathize with his plight. Whether people on this board care or not, we are held in very low regard internationally. We are viewed as imposing our will and spreading peace and democracy with bombs and guns, and to hell with anybody that doesn't agree with that mindset.

Whether anyone agrees w/ that sentiment is their business, but that is the perception and unfortunately preception is reality.
So we've established your McVeigh- Christianity comparison is invalid.

I guess I missed the part where we were destroying their country killing thier people and "stealing" their natural resources. Muslim extremists declared war on us openly a decade before we responded. They repeatedly attacked US interests, including the World Trade Center twice. Finally we answered. And I'm not sure what Bin Laden's plight was that you seem to sympathise with.

Sometimes perception is propaganda and envy, and you've bought right into it.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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#49
The Quran does say something to the effect of killing infidels. They view us as infidels due to our foreign policy - in a nutshell - occupying and destroying their holy land so we can get our hands on their oil, and our support of Israel.

So in their mind, we are infidels.

Sorry, but your statement above is flat-out wrong.

In the Muslim world, infidels are defined as anyone who does not ascribe to the teachings of the holy prophet Mohommed. It has absolutely nothing to do with what our foreign policy is. As established in the Koran, all non-Muslims are referred to as infidels --atheists, Methodists, Catholics, Hindus, Sikhs, (insert any non-Muslim belief system here) -- infidels all.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#50
So we've established your McVeigh- Christianity comparison is invalid.

I guess I missed the part where we were destroying their country killing thier people and "stealing" their natural resources. Muslim extremists declared war on us openly a decade before we responded. They repeatedly attacked US interests, including the World Trade Center twice. Finally we answered. And I'm not sure what Bin Laden's plight was that you seem to sympathise with.

Sometimes perception is propaganda and envy, and you've bought right into it.
Why is my McVeigh-Christianity comparison invalid? My point was that not all Christians support McVeigh, just like all Muslims don't support bin Ladens methods. My point was that it's important to avoid generalizations. I think many people have been led to thinking that all Muslims are crazy bombing extremists which isn't the case. My point is to also look at what drives those extremists to that point - which has been explained by them and documented by the CIA for 50 years - "blowback" - a direct retaliation for our foreign policy.

Buying the current administrations party line of "they hate our freedom, they hate our way of life" is naive. It's propoganda. I know it's convenient to think we don't do anything wrong and that we're better than everyone, but that's not always the case, and in this circumstance it isn't the case.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#51
Sorry, but your statement above is flat-out wrong.

In the Muslim world, infidels are defined as anyone who does not ascribe to the teachings of the holy prophet Mohommed. It has absolutely nothing to do with what our foreign policy is. As established in the Koran, all non-Muslims are referred to as infidels --atheists, Methodists, Catholics, Hindus, Sikhs, (insert any non-Muslim belief system here) -- infidels all.
I wouldn't go into a Southern Baptist Church and tell them their theoligical points are flawed. I wouldn't go into a Synagogue and tell them their beliefs are wrong. I wouldn't go into a Mosque and denounce their way of life. I believe in live and let live, and I believe if we try and respect each other rather than kill everyone who doesn't think like us, we'd actually make some progress.

Now the knee jerk reaction is to say "Well they attacked us, should we just let it continue to happen?" Hell no. First, they killed approximately 4000 people on 9/11. Well we've killed hundreds of thousands of people in retaliation. Also, let me ask - If we are truly a superior race than them, then why do you subscribe in mocking their actions? Does it not occur to you that for every reaction there is a reaction? If you TRULY want to end this hostility, you have to rise up above them. You have to lead by example. If we retaliate with insane force killing thousands of innocent bystanders, why should they be held to a different standard? We are no different than they are.

They're entitled to their belief and I won't mess with it. Our government is invading countries, killing their people by the hundreds of thousands, stealing their natural resources, and imposing our will through guns and bombs. All in the name of democracy. Our intentions might be good, but are we that naive to disregard what we are doing to those people?

This war was proven to be grounded on lies. How can it continually be supported?

Guess what? Their book of law doesn't read like ours. We may view it as barbaric, but I'd argue that many of our views are barbaric. To think we have it all figured out and to preach to everyone else is a joke. We are hypocrites in the eyes of objectionable parties.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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Edmond
#52
Desertpoke,
I'm not quite sure what you are going on and on about in reference to my post. I was simply pointing out that what you wrote about why we are considered infidels (They view us as infidels due to our foreign policy - in a nutshell - occupying and destroying their holy land so we can get our hands on their oil, and our support of Israel.) is factually inaccurate.
 
Mar 3, 2004
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#53
desertpoke has his(?) mind set. No matter what you or any of us say, desertpoke isn't going to change his mind.

No reason to continue this conversation when someone has a view like he does.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#54
Desertpoke,
I'm not quite sure what you are going on and on about in reference to my post. I was simply pointing out that what you wrote about why we are considered infidels (They view us as infidels due to our foreign policy - in a nutshell - occupying and destroying their holy land so we can get our hands on their oil, and our support of Israel.) is factually inaccurate.
Then why aren't the other billion or so Muslims in the world actively terrorizing the planet as we speak? Are they not true Muslims then, since the vast majority have never killed anyone? I'd say they are indeed still Muslims, which displays that their definition of "infidel" is subject to interpretation regardless of how it is defined in the Quran.
 
Mar 3, 2004
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#55
So you are saying we should ignore what their "religion" or their "god" says, and just listen to what they tell us they are about?

How can you just ignore something that is their "holy book" and something that they are suppose to live by? Maybe some of them ignore it now, but what makes you so convinced they will always ignore it? What makes you so convinced that when conditions are "favorable" some of them won't change their mind?
 

CowboyOrangeFan

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Jun 9, 2006
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#56
Then why aren't the other billion or so Muslims in the world actively terrorizing the planet as we speak? Are they not true Muslims then, since the vast majority have never killed anyone? I'd say they are indeed still Muslims, which displays that their definition of "infidel" is subject to interpretation regardless of how it is defined in the Quran.
An infidel is a non-muslim. No interpretation needed. Now if you are a muslim choosing which infidels you want to attack or fight with is a whole other story.

BTW, you are in the right ballpark in some of your statements (as far as why they don't like us), although you have to mention Israel. The state of Israel is at the top of the crap list for any good jihadist. So our support of Israel isn't winning us any brownie points.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#57
An infidel is a non-muslim. No interpretation needed. Now if you are a muslim choosing which infidels you want to attack or fight with is a whole other story.

BTW, you are in the right ballpark in some of your statements (as far as why they don't like us), although you have to mention Israel. The state of Israel is at the top of the crap list for any good jihadist. So our support of Israel isn't winning us any brownie points.

100% agreed. Israel is huge.
 
Sep 8, 2007
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#58
I wouldn't go into a Southern Baptist Church and tell them their theoligical points are flawed. I wouldn't go into a Synagogue and tell them their beliefs are wrong. I wouldn't go into a Mosque and denounce their way of life. I believe in live and let live, and I believe if we try and respect each other rather than kill everyone who doesn't think like us, we'd actually make some progress.

Now the knee jerk reaction is to say "Well they attacked us, should we just let it continue to happen?" Hell no. First, they killed approximately 4000 people on 9/11. Well we've killed hundreds of thousands of people in retaliation. Also, let me ask - If we are truly a superior race than them, then why do you subscribe in mocking their actions? Does it not occur to you that for every reaction there is a reaction? If you TRULY want to end this hostility, you have to rise up above them. You have to lead by example. If we retaliate with insane force killing thousands of innocent bystanders, why should they be held to a different standard? We are no different than they are.

They're entitled to their belief and I won't mess with it. Our government is invading countries, killing their people by the hundreds of thousands, stealing their natural resources, and imposing our will through guns and bombs. All in the name of democracy. Our intentions might be good, but are we that naive to disregard what we are doing to those people?

This war was proven to be grounded on lies. How can it continually be supported?

Guess what? Their book of law doesn't read like ours. We may view it as barbaric, but I'd argue that many of our views are barbaric. To think we have it all figured out and to preach to everyone else is a joke. We are hypocrites in the eyes of objectionable parties.

I would love to see your documented and researched evidence on this, and exactly how much and how long we have apparently been raping and pillaging their sand dunes. cause I'm sure they get no compensation for the oil we get out of there. Show facts. The stuff YOU say is propaganda.

If you can't notice the terrorist attacks that have been going on to American for decades, then no one can help you.

Lets forget the fact of how many terrorist activities come OUT of the middle east PERIOD. Not just against America, but against many other, mainly the Israeli's.

Maybe its our place to help? Maybe its not. I know I for one am for going against terrorism, but I'm not saying we are doing it right all the time. But, if you are a Christ follower, and believer in the Bible as the Holy word of God, you would probably feel more confident about the situation.
 

Jostate

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Jun 24, 2005
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#59
Why is my McVeigh-Christianity comparison invalid? My point was that not all Christians support McVeigh, just like all Muslims don't support bin Ladens methods.
Then answer my question. Which do you think is higher?

Christians that support Mcveigh
or
Muslims that support Bin Laden

I don't know the exact #'s and neither do you. But we both know the answer. And it's not even close.

We are not perfect, as a nation, but our intent is generally far more noble than theirs.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#60
I would love to see your documented and researched evidence on this, and exactly how much and how long we have apparently been raping and pillaging their sand dunes. cause I'm sure they get no compensation for the oil we get out of there. Show facts. The stuff YOU say is propaganda.

If you can't notice the terrorist attacks that have been going on to American for decades, then no one can help you.

Lets forget the fact of how many terrorist activities come OUT of the middle east PERIOD. Not just against America, but against many other, mainly the Israeli's.

Maybe its our place to help? Maybe its not. I know I for one am for going against terrorism, but I'm not saying we are doing it right all the time. But, if you are a Christ follower, and believer in the Bible as the Holy word of God, you would probably feel more confident about the situation.
You need documented proof that we've killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in the last several years? Are you serious? And you think they all benefit from that? You think they are better off for our invasion and hijacking of their oil? You think they love us there? Are you sticking your head in the sand or do yo honestly believe that?

When did I say I didn't know that there have been "terrorist" attacks for decades? I'm the one that explained that "blowback" has been documented since the early 1950's. "Terrorism" is nothing new. Please explain your assumption for my lack of acknowledgment.

How many times have you been victim to terrorism? How many of your family members have? You've been driven to paranoia brotha.

And you just said that I'm not a Christian if I don't agree with you. Are you kidding? I'm just going to keep throwing this out there - WWJD? Since you are the all knowing keeper of the Christian gates you should be able to clarify.