Gives me goosebumps...

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Feb 7, 2007
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#61
So you are saying we should ignore what their "religion" or their "god" says, and just listen to what they tell us they are about?

How can you just ignore something that is their "holy book" and something that they are suppose to live by? Maybe some of them ignore it now, but what makes you so convinced they will always ignore it? What makes you so convinced that when conditions are "favorable" some of them won't change their mind?
What makes you so sure that Christians won't start ignoring the bible and think that killing hundreds of thousands of people is noble? Oh wait...

There is no guarantee that ANYONE won't go off the deep end. If you think big government and sociopathic foreign policy will protect us then I really don't know what to tell you...

Do you understand the Golden Rule? Do you agree with it, or only when it's convenient and serves your own personal grudges?

Thats my beef here, all these people masquerading as Christians while condoning the murder and exploitation of others. I simply don't understand it.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#62
Then answer my question. Which do you think is higher?

Christians that support Mcveigh
or
Muslims that support Bin Laden

I don't know the exact #'s and neither do you. But we both know the answer. And it's not even close.

We are not perfect, as a nation, but our intent is generally far more noble than theirs.
How many Americans agree with our foreign policy? How many people internationally agree with it? You are trying to twist it into a religious war, because that is what has largely been sold to the American public. They've prayed on your insecurity that is religion, and you don't even know it.

9/11 had NOTHING to do with religion. Straight from bin Laden's mouth - it was in retalition for our presence in the middle east and alliance with Israel. If you want to buy into the complete bullshit propaganda that "they hate our freedoms, they hate our way of life" then I'd question your ability of deductive reasoning. The culprit of 9/11 has clearly stated NUMEROUS times why they did it. Are you that ignorant that you deny what his own stated reason is? How do you justify that stance?
 
Aug 7, 2006
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#63
You are trying to twist it into a religious war, because that is what has largely been sold to the American public. They've prayed on your insecurity that is religion, and you don't even know it.

9/11 had NOTHING to do with religion. Straight from bin Laden's mouth - it was in retalition for our presence in the middle east and alliance with Israel. If you want to buy into the complete bullshit propaganda that "they hate our freedoms, they hate our way of life" then I'd question your ability of deductive reasoning. The culprit of 9/11 has clearly stated NUMEROUS times why they did it. Are you that ignorant that you deny what his own stated reason is? How do you justify that stance?
I wouldn't say it had NOTHING to do with religion. You have to admit at least that the centuries of religious bloodshed between Christians, Muslims and Jews has some impact on everything that happens in that region.

Bin Laden may say in some places that 9/11 was a secular militant exercise, but he undoubtedly recruits new terrorists using the same nationalist ethnocentric pseudo-religious propaganda that has been used to fuel hatred in our own country.

I completely agree that this war is bullshit and has been from the start, but to deny that religion is a factor on either side . . . I think you're stretching a bit. The populace of the middle east is just as blinded by the manipulation of their leaders as the average American. So while the leaders of the countries may not see it as a religious war, the populace clearly does.

Besides, what else but religion could inspire such fervor and thirst for blood?
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#64
I wouldn't say it had NOTHING to do with religion. You have to admit at least that the centuries of religious bloodshed between Christians, Muslims and Jews has some impact on everything that happens in that region.

Bin Laden may say in some places that 9/11 was a secular militant exercise, but he undoubtedly recruits new terrorists using the same nationalist ethnocentric pseudo-religious propaganda that has been used to fuel hatred in our own country.

I completely agree that this war is bullshit and has been from the start, but to deny that religion is a factor on either side . . . I think you're stretching a bit. The populace of the middle east is just as blinded by the manipulation of their leaders as the average American. So while the leaders of the countries may not see it as a religious war, the populace clearly does.

Besides, what else but religion could inspire such fervor and thirst for blood?
I'm saying that bin Laden has never said "We attacked on 9/11 and will continue to attack Americans because they are Christian". He's said it's our presence in the Middle East and alliance w/ Israel.

But yes, absolutely 1000's of years of brutal wars in the Middle East itself is fueled by religion. And yes, I'd agree that bin Laden coerces recruits through exploitation of religion. Just like the US does.
 
Mar 3, 2004
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#66
What makes you so sure that Christians won't start ignoring the bible and think that killing hundreds of thousands of people is noble? Oh wait...

There is no guarantee that ANYONE won't go off the deep end. If you think big government and sociopathic foreign policy will protect us then I really don't know what to tell you...

Do you understand the Golden Rule? Do you agree with it, or only when it's convenient and serves your own personal grudges?

Thats my beef here, all these people masquerading as Christians while condoning the murder and exploitation of others. I simply don't understand it.
With comments like that, you aren't worth having a conversation with. Thanks for totally ignoring my point. The Quran tells them to kill. Please, tell me where the Bible tells people to kill then you will have a point.

You obviously hate Christians and can't look at the Muslim issue openly b/c of that hate.
 
Feb 7, 2007
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#67
With comments like that, you aren't worth having a conversation with. Thanks for totally ignoring my point. The Quran tells them to kill. Please, tell me where the Bible tells people to kill then you will have a point.

You obviously hate Christians and can't look at the Muslim issue openly b/c of that hate.
You've mentioned twice that I'm not worth conversing with, yet you keep coming back. If I'm bothering you so bad, dare I say not to reply?

And you're making VERY brash and unsubstantiated claims about me. Believe what you want, but you couldn't be more wrong about what you perceive as my hate toward any religion. I respect anyone's beliefs. I don't believe I have all the answers and they don't either. I've been lucky enough to be around lots of different people in my life. Some were assholes, some weren't. What I've learned is that truth is universal and we have much more in common than some people on here think. Our experiences have a lot of common ground and that's what I chose to look at. Can you disagree with that?

There are Christian extremists, there are Muslim extremists. I'd speak the exact same to either one, as they are one in the same to me.
 
Aug 7, 2006
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#69
Please, tell me where the Bible tells people to kill
Deuteronomy

21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Leviticus

20:9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. Children that curse their parents.

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

20:15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. (20:15-16)

20:16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


Admittedly, the New Testament is less blood thirsty and many Christians suggest that Jesus wiped away some of the old laws. However, you'll note that many Christians still choose to cling to those "old laws" that they like e.g. sex before marriage and homosexuality.
 
Mar 3, 2004
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#70
Fair enough. Those were laws in that day, similar to many laws we have today.

Maybe I should have worded that different. Please show me where the Bible tells you to kill b/c people disagree with what you believe.
 
Sep 8, 2007
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#71
What makes you so sure that Christians won't start ignoring the bible and think that killing hundreds of thousands of people is noble? Oh wait...

There is no guarantee that ANYONE won't go off the deep end. If you think big government and sociopathic foreign policy will protect us then I really don't know what to tell you...

Do you understand the Golden Rule? Do you agree with it, or only when it's convenient and serves your own personal grudges?

Thats my beef here, all these people masquerading as Christians while condoning the murder and exploitation of others. I simply don't understand it.


While I understand what youre TRYING to say, youre not supporting it correctly.

The war between the Palestinians and Israelites dates back to Jacob and Esau, and it states in the Bible that Israel is God's chosen nation. It states that in the end (if we really want to get into this) that many nations will come against Gods people of Israel, and sorry, but I'd prefer to be on the God's people side than against them..


I'm not condoning murder, but war is a regular part of the Bible, so dont make it out like its not. Go back and read the old testament and write down all the hundreds of thousands of deaths in there. One thing people always say about God is he's a God of mercy and love, which he is, but he is also a jealous God and a wrathful God. Hes not some joker standing on the side.

That being said, I'm not CONDONING killing innocent people. But we don't know the story. And I'm not comparing today to the Ancient times, but look at the times of War in the old testament, the innocent died with the Guilty, simply because they were involved with them, only in being in the same town as them, or nation. Just think on that, if you want to look at it from a Biblical view, like you are trying to do
 

Jostate

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Jun 24, 2005
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#72
How many Americans agree with our foreign policy? How many people internationally agree with it? You are trying to twist it into a religious war, because that is what has largely been sold to the American public. They've prayed on your insecurity that is religion, and you don't even know it.

9/11 had NOTHING to do with religion. Straight from bin Laden's mouth - it was in retalition for our presence in the middle east and alliance with Israel. If you want to buy into the complete bullshit propaganda that "they hate our freedoms, they hate our way of life" then I'd question your ability of deductive reasoning. The culprit of 9/11 has clearly stated NUMEROUS times why they did it. Are you that ignorant that you deny what his own stated reason is? How do you justify that stance?

I see you have again been afraid to answer my question. You drew a comparison to the Christians not me. I just asked you a simple questin to point out the fact that a larger percentage of Muslims support Bin Laden.

The whole Israel issue is complicated and I don't understand everything involved with it. I actually made an effort to undertand it with a little reading and research. What I learned is this fight between the Philistines (Palestinians) and Jews (Isreal) has been going on since before Moses. The US didn't have much to do with it for the first 2000 years or so. Now if we did not involve ourselves Israel would be destroyed. Personally I don't like the idea of genocide, but I would be happy if we got out of the whole conflict.

Bin Laden blames our involvement in the middle east for his terrorism. Our involvement is because we are trying to prevent genocide based on religion. That makes religion the cause of Bin Ladens actions.

I have worked with several people from the middle east. All of them, whom I would consider decent people, have college degrees from American univerities. Without exception when we discuss these conflicts, they make brief mention of not liking Bin Laden's actions. They spend as long (as you are able to listen) explaining why we had it coming. Their minds are very full of anger and hate. When asked if Israel has a right to exist, they are about as good at answering questions as desertpoke.

I'll ask you desertpoke - Does Israel have a right to exist? Do you think they would continue to exist without our involvement?
 
Aug 7, 2006
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#73
a larger percentage of Muslims support Bin Laden.
This is true.

However, A larger percentage of Muslims have been killed by because of us than Christians because of Bin Laden. I think our proxy wars with the Soviets, our support of brutal military campaigns by Israel, and our support of brutal dictators throughout the Middle East (like Saddam) all explain that difference much better than differences in the religion.

What I learned is this fight between the Philistines (Palestinians) and Jews (Isreal) has been going on since before Moses. The US didn't have much to do with it for the first 2000 years or so.
I think its an over simplification to say Palestines ARE Philistines and the modern state of Isreal ARE the ancient Hebrews. While it lays claims to that heritage, the original founders were mainly from Europe. Also, that conflict hasn't been GOING ON since before Moses. There weren't enough Jews left even in Jerusalem to have a conflict until the founding of the Israeli state after WWII. Before that things were pretty quiet for 1000 years. That's a long gap to still call it the same problem.

Our involvement is because we are trying to prevent genocide based on religion.
What genocide? By whom of whom?

Does Israel have a right to exist?
Does any country? Nearly every modern country was born through some kind of bloodshed.

A better question would be, has our western guilt over the holocaust and decades of antisemitism reduced to the level that we no longer feel the need to protect them.