Guns and violence

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Epperley28

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Nov 11, 2005
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#81
Surly by only reducing it by 50% you could identfy the actual non-violent drug offenders who really need to be in Jail...just like the mother you spoke of
I would argue that she's a product of prohibition. If drugs are legalized, which I'm not saying I'm totally in favor of so don't take it that way, but if they were, she's not undercutting Marlboro, Wal-Mart, CVS, QuikTrip, or whoever is selling them. Nobody's making any money selling weed out of their trailer in that system so the hypothetical and despicable mother wouldn't exist.
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
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#82
When this discussion has come up before and people post examples of non-violent drug offenders it turns out similat to the example I gave above. It's someone like a mother with a child hanging on her skirt selling drugs....
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
Jun 28, 2007
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#83
I would argue that she's a product of prohibition. If drugs are legalized, which I'm not saying I'm totally in favor of so don't take it that way, but if they were, she's not undercutting Marlboro, Wal-Mart, CVS, QuikTrip, or whoever is selling them. Nobody's making any money selling weed out of their trailer in that system so the hypothetical and despicable mother wouldn't exist.
That wasn't a hypothetical example. It was real and an example someone used as a person in jail for simple possession.
 

Epperley28

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Nov 11, 2005
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#84
Not saying it isn't correct. But that was written in 1994 and I don't see where they laid out exactly what was "low-level".
It's not clear on the definition of "sophisticated criminal activity" but I'd guess they're talking about end users and mules. More important is that they've never been incarcerated before and they have no violence on their record, probably following the FBI's definition above. The reason that's important to me is that, beyond their illegal drug dealings which would likely disappear along with prohibition, they haven't been a threat to society at large.
 

Binman4OSU

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Aug 31, 2007
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#86
I still want to hear of a few examples of those in jail who are non violent drug offenders. What are they in jail for?

I've shown the statistics before that it's a lie that people are in jail for simple possession in any significant numbers....
The avg sentence for low level drug offenders was 81.5 months or 6.7 Years

over 90% of these low level offenders had no prior contact with the criminal justice system

66% of low level first time drug offenders recived the same scentences as those who are considered high level drug offenders and previous histories of criminal activity
42% of those low level first time drug offenders were not involved in the manufacturing or sale of the drugs, only the transportation of drugs

Ron Paul has said he would pardon non-violent drug offenders

Obama has said that non-violent drug offenders need to be paroled and offered treatment

Gov Christie said that non violent drug offender need treatment and not incarceration

Newt Gingrich has said that non violent drug offenders should not be jailed and given medical help instead

Mitt Romney has refused to answer this question

Herman Cain said he can not tell you what the answer is, but a decision needs to be made

Jon Huntsman signed a bill into the state of Utah that diverted first time drug offenders into treatment programs instead of jail

Rick Perry signed a grant to support Drug Treatment for non violent drug offenders in Texas to break the cycle of crime

Rick Santorum said that sending non violent drug offenders to prison is destroying American families and the Federal Govt needs to stop it
 

Cimarron

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Jun 28, 2007
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#87
I thought you said she was dealing.
Patricia Marilyn Spottedcrow and her mother sold $10.00 of marijuana to a police informantinside their home. Patricia's children were present. When the informant paid her, she asked her son for single dollar bills so she could make change. A few weeks later, the informant returned and bought $20.00 of pot.

Both women were first-time offenders.
 

Epperley28

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#88
Both women were first-time offenders.
And neither one of them would have been doing that if you could buy pot at QT next to the beer. The danger comes from the legal status and the sketchy people involved, not the drugs themselves. To steal a phrase from the NRA, drugs don't kill people, people kill people.

People use drugs around kids all the time. I was just watching a Samantha Brown this morning where they put a baby down on the fresh grapes at a vineyard in order to bless the harvest while everybody consumed alcohol. Are they endangering the child?

I will bet you a million dollars right now that alcohol and benzodiazepines have cause ten times more child neglect in this country than marijuana. It's probably closer to a hundred times, but there's a million dollars on the line so I'm hedging my bets :) I don't think any of them are a healthy way to raise a child, but those aren't my decisions to make for everybody. That's between a woman, her doctor, and her God.
 

Cimarron

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Jun 28, 2007
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#89
And neither one of them would have been doing that if you could buy pot at QT next to the beer. The danger comes from the legal status and the sketchy people involved, not the drugs themselves. To steal a phrase from the NRA, drugs don't kill people, people kill people.

People use drugs around kids all the time. I was just watching a Samantha Brown this morning where they put a baby down on the fresh grapes at a vineyard in order to bless the harvest while everybody consumed alcohol. Are they endangering the child?

I will bet you a million dollars right now that alcohol and benzodiazepines have cause ten times more child neglect in this country than marijuana. It's probably closer to a hundred times, but there's a million dollars on the line so I'm hedging my bets :) I don't think any of them are a healthy way to raise a child, but those aren't my decisions to make for everybody. That's between a woman, her doctor, and her God.
So the government made her sell drugs in front of her children?

I'm not saying we shouldn't de-criminalyze some drugs like marijuana. But it is the current law just like I think some speed limits should be 45 and not 35. But I'm still going to get a ticket for going 45 in a 35 until we can change the law. I also shouldn't be breaking the law in front of my children. What does that teach the next generation?
 

Epperley28

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#90
So the government made her sell drugs in front of her children?

I'm not saying we shouldn't de-criminalyze some drugs like marijuana. But it is the current law just like I think some speed limits should be 45 and not 35. But I'm still going to get a ticket for going 45 in a 35 until we can change the law. I also shouldn't be breaking the law in front of my children. What does that teach the next generation?
No, but the government made it profitable for her to do so. Given legalization she still probably would have been doing something else illegal because, let's face it, she's a bad mother.
 

Cimarron

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Jun 28, 2007
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#91
No, but the government made it profitable for her to do so. Given legalization she still probably would have been doing something else illegal because, let's face it, she's a bad mother.
Damn, isn't that what the government is supposed to do? :) She just wasn't a good enough business manager which is why she is in jail.......
 

StillwaterTownie

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#92
Damn, isn't that what the government is supposed to do? :) She just wasn't a good enough business manager which is why she is in jail.......
If Kingfisher County had drug courts at the time charged, she probably would have never gone to prison. Even Mark Woodward, a big shot at the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs, supports drug courts.
 

OSU Sig

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#95
We do not have a gun problem. We have a lack of respect for fellow citiizens and human life problem. It's a problem of crime and its not going to change by restricting the tools used in the commmission of the crimes.
UK severely restricted or outlawed firearms. Now they have crime issues with knives. Same in AU. I would suggest looking at violent crime rates in states where CCW are issued. Now compare those crime stats with cities/states that have over restrictive gun laws.
 

OSU Sig

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#96
So what? Because there might be worse things does not mean that we do not have gun problems. That's like telling a hungry child that there are children starving in Africa, it is little comfort and doesn't solve the problem.
What is your solution to the increase in gun crime?
 

PokealypseNow

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#98
I would suggest looking at violent crime rates in states where CCW are issued. Now compare those crime stats with cities/states that have over restrictive gun laws.
That would actually be pretty interesting. I wonder, though, if it might not be a more accurate and useful comparison to compare major metropolitan areas with large, poor, minority populations (i.e. black and hispanic gangs) from two+ states with wildly different CCW laws.

That would weed out comparing New Jersey to Wyoming.

Maybe Houston or Phoenix? I don't know.

more guns. You dont hear of people getting mugged at a gun show.
But you do hear of dumbasses negligent discharging every once in a while! Hahaha.
 

State

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#99
So the government made her sell drugs in front of her children?
What's it matter? Should I be locked up for buying beer in front of my kids? Or someone else for buying cigs? What about a nudie mag? Unless they were putting the kids in a dangerous situation, and there's no indication they were, then the presence of the kids shouldn't matter. If marijuana were legal, would there be any harm to kids witnessing a private transaction? Maybe she was teaching the kids a financial lesson!
 

GodsPeace

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Aug 20, 2004
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Stillwater
No, but the government made it profitable for her to do so. Given legalization she still probably would have been doing something else illegal because, let's face it, she's a bad mother.
It is illegal to sell my children too, yet I could make a killing off of them. If only we reinstituted slavery we could cut down on the black market by killing is profitability.

I realize this is an extreme example but still...

Murders are very often crimes of passion. Imho, without a gun people would find another handy method to kill. Then there are the serial types who strangely enough seem to not use guns often. Probably cause it isnt personal enough.

My point...taking away guns limita options for violence not violence.