Israel conducts air strikes in Gaza

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Feb 11, 2007
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#63
What is interesting to me is how there has been a change in support of Israel in the US depending upon political sides.

It used to be everyone supported Israel and for the most part Republicans and most Democrats still do. Republicans support Israel by a super-majority with over 80% support and Democrats support Israel by over 50%. But those that identify as progressives or liberal have changed their support by 20% points toward Palestine in the last 5 years. And now more progressives/liberals support Palestine than Israel.

I am not sure why progressives/liberals have such a different view on the Israel/Palestine conflict. And why it has changed so much recently.
Israel has been our only long term friend in the Middle East. We ought to honor that friendship and continue
to support Israel.
 

wrenhal

Federal Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
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#64
Media perception. They portray Hamas as freedom fighters from the invading force of Israelis. Just look at the disingenuous map posted above by pj.

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That could be. I don't know the answer as to why a specific political segment has moved so much recently from Israel support to Palestine. Kind of fascinating to me. Could it be because:
1) Anti-semitism: Could Omar and Talib's comments be driving their followers to feel this way?? (EDIT: I don't personally think this is big driver, but it is interesting that the plummet of support from progressives/liberals coincided with AOC, Omar, and Talib's time on the national scene. And they have been very clear with their anti-Israel views).
2) Move of Israel embassy: Could the move of the US Embassy in Israel by Trump just have caused a backlash by those that want to disagree with him on everything?
3) Black Lives Matter solidarity with Palestine: Could the marches from BLM and statements from BLM leaders supporting Palestine and stating their solidarity be influencing their followers to support Palestine?
All of the above.

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wrenhal

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Aug 11, 2011
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#65
When the sh*t hits the fan, do you think it will be Israel or Palestine that will be our on our side?
if you believe the Bible. It will be Palestine on our side as ALL nations of the world will turn against Israel
Well it depends on whether or not you're a dispensationalist. But I won't derail this thread with a theology discussion.

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okstate987

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Oct 17, 2009
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#66
Lol...So history for your map starts in 1897?
Israel map throughout history - YouTube
Fyi, the Kingdom of Israel was established in 1047 BC...Islam didn't even exist as a Religion until Mohammad started it in 610 AD...610 years after Christianity...and 2,000 plus years after Judaism.

Just some trivia in this "debate" over the holy land and who's it is...or isn't.
So the whole "we were first" argument based on the biblical record...ok.

If you are going off the biblical record--which is very suspect in this regard, the Israelites took the land from the canaanites and amalekites based on "God's will" so take that for what it is worth. There were also constant invasions and other people groups that continued to exist and reside in the area for at this point thousands of years.

I think establishing a jewish state after the holocaust was the right thing to do, and they were doing it the right way by buying large swaths of land from the locals to do it. The problem was when David Ben Gurion decided that this process was taking too long and he wanted more land immediately. That resulted in Plan Dalet, which massacred 3 Palestinian villages to make an example of them and then Ben Gurion's Stern Gangs seized about 35% more land than they had purchased. Those actions resulted in the 1948 arab-israeli war.

Pretty much all of the actions since then has been fallout from that initial decision. I get why he did that, especially coming out of the holocaust, but it is a lesson for what is expedient in the short term is not in the long term and that it only takes a generation for those who are oppressed to become oppressors if one is not careful.
 

okstate987

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#75
Provocative acts carried out by Israeli security forces and settlers in East Jerusalem during Ramadan compounded with decades-old Palestinian resentments have erupted into the most dangerous outbreak of Israeli-Palestinian warfare since 2014.

This might not have happened if Ramadan had been relatively peaceful in the holy city. Existing tensions escalated when – although most Palestinian Jerusalemites have been vaccinated – Israeli security forces imposed Covid limitations on numbers allowed to attend special Ramadan prayers at al-Aqsa mosque, the third holiest site in Islam.

Sporadic skirmishes at the Haram al-Sharif – the mosque compound known to Israelis as the Temple Mount – broke out between Palestinian youths and Israeli forces and continued throughout Ramadan.

Two weeks of additional clashes ensued when Israeli police erected barricades to prevent Palestinians from gathering after daily fasts outside Damascus Gate, the main entrance to the Muslim quarter of the Old City. Ultra-nationalist Israelis were permitted to parade through the Old City, harassing Palestinians, attacking shops and homes, and chanting “Death to Arabs”.

On Saturday, Israeli police halted busloads of Palestinian citizens of Israel at the entrance to Jerusalem where they intended to go to al-Aqsa for the Night of Destiny, the most sacred annual observances marking the revelation of the Koran to the Prophet Muhammad.

Israeli police arrest a Palestinian demonstrator during a protest in support of Palestinian families that face eviction from their homes at Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood, near Damascus gate in the old city of Jerusalem on May 8th. Photograph: Atef Safadi/EPA
The passengers, mostly women, alighted and began walking until Palestinian Jerusalemites arrived in cars to take them to the city. Many Israeli Palestinians travel to Jerusalem for Friday prayers and other religious occasions to demonstrate solidarity with brethren living under Israeli occupation.

Dr Mahdi Abdul Hadi, who heads an East Jerusalem think tank, told The Irish Times that Palestinian youths participating in protests have “reacted to the provocations. They are without leadership and are disappointed in Fatah, Hamas, the Arabs and the international community”.

Ramadan provocations were exacerbated by Israel’s long planned but now postponed evictions of Palestinian refugees from their homes of 65 years in the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood north of the Old City. Palestinian resentment has built for decades due to home seizures by settlers, Israel’s refusal to grant building permits, demolitions of homes without permits, and land expropriations.

Palestinians in the Mount of Olives, Silwan and Ras al-Amud are also targeted. The UN reports that 877 Palestinians, including 391 children, currently face eviction.

Palestinian East Jerusalemites, particularly those studying or working abroad, can be stripped of their right of residence in the city if it is not the primary focus of their lives and both Muslims and Christians must marry within the narrow pool of eligible partners there or risk deportation to the West Bank or Gaza.

The Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan, and Morocco, which have signed normalisation deals with Israel, have condemned Israel as have Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the Arab League, the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation and non-Arab Turkey and Mauritania.

Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...lestinian-resentments-into-violence-1.4563327
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#78
I would take anything he says with a grain of salt. Shapiro after all doesn't like identity politics, unless they have to do with his own identity.
I get that he is a conservative that you don't agree with politically, but is what he tweeted inaccurate? It looks factual to me and he is not spinning as an opinion.
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You then copy and pasted an article from the Irishtimes --- a publication pretty well known as liberal.

Probably good for all of us to read from items from multiple viewpoints to get what is actually the truth. Especially for activities that are occurring on the other side of the world.

But one truth is Israel has been a STRONG ally for the US in the Middle East for decades. We (the US, not posters on this board) must support Israel.
 

okstate987

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#79
I get that he is a conservative that you don't agree with politically, but is what he tweeted inaccurate? It looks factual to me and he is not spinning as an opinion.
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You then copy and pasted an article from the Irishtimes --- a publication pretty well known as liberal.

Probably good for all of us to read from items from multiple viewpoints to get what is actually the truth. Especially for activities that are occurring on the other side of the world.

But one truth is Israel has been a STRONG ally for the US in the Middle East for decades. We (the US, not posters on this board) must support Israel.
The tweet is disingenuous as it is meant to garner support for the state of Israel because of its patience of not evicting 6 palestinian families from jewish owned land, when in the same time period, there have been tens of thousands of palestinians forcefully removed from their land so jewish settlers can build settlements there. Leaving out that not-so-small detail is problematic, is it not?

Yes, the Irish Times is liberal by american standards. It is also less likely to be mired in the american political food fight on this topic.

Israel has been an unequal partner in our dealings with them. They are the #1 recipient for our foreign aid, by a wide margin, we heavily subsidize their military, they have an undue amount of influence in our foreign policy, many times due to evangelical and fundamentalist's dispensationalist beliefs and the huge sums of money organizations like AIPAC are able to utilize.

The reality is that the current state of Israel is almost identical to the apartheid regime of 1980's South Africa. Their mechanisms of control and race relations are very, very similar. For ethical reasons, I don't think we should support Israel until they clean up their act and Netanyahu's regime is out of power.

This doesn't excuse the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization or the terrorism perpetrated by some palestinians, although since Israel holds the power, they have a greater responsibility to act with integrity here. As I said before, both have a right to exist.
 
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Jul 5, 2020
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Broken Arrow
#80
They claimed we owed them $400 mil plus interest on assets frozen when they had their revolution. They also were holding American citizens as hostages and we wanted them to comply with our nuclear agreement.

The question I have is why the stacks of cash? I get why it went down but a wire transfer is so much better optics.
I really believe it’s the preferred form of payment to organizations like Hamas, etc.