Israel conducts air strikes in Gaza

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Mar 11, 2006
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#81
The tweet is disingenuous as it is meant to garner support for the state of Israel because of its patience of not evicting 6 palestinian families from jewish owned land, when in the same time period, there have been tens of thousands of palestinians forcefully removed from their land so jewish settlers can build settlements there. Leaving out that not-so-small detail is problematic, is it not?

Yes, the Irish Times is liberal by american standards. It is also less likely to be mired in the american political food fight on this topic.

Israel has been an unequal partner in our dealings with them. They are the #1 recipient for our foreign aid, by a wide margin, we heavily subsidize their military, they have an undue amount of influence in our foreign policy, many times due to evangelical and fundamentalist's dispensationalist beliefs and the huge sums of money organizations like AIPAC are able to utilize.

The reality is that the current state of Israel is almost identical to the apartheid regime of 1980's South Africa. Their mechanisms of control and race relations are very, very similar. For ethical reasons, I don't think we should support Israel until they clean up their act and Netanyahu's regime is out of power.

This doesn't excuse the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization or the terrorism perpetrated by some palestinians, although since Israel holds the power, they have a greater responsibility to act with integrity here. As I said before, both have a right to exist.
Fair enough on the Shapiro tweet. But re-read you Iris times article from a non-biased view. It literally leads with “Provocative acts carried out by Israeli security forces”. Not really a beacon of fairness and kinda leaves out some major news about who first fired a missle.
 

okstate987

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#82
Fair enough on the Shapiro tweet. But re-read you Iris times article from a non-biased view. It literally leads with “Provocative acts carried out by Israeli security forces”. Not really a beacon of fairness and kinda leaves out some major news about who first fired a missle.
I appreciate your candor with the tween. The palestinians, Hamas in particular, did fire the first rocket, however, this article does not mention it or any of the israeli retaliations either. The scope of the article was what happened in Jerusalem, not in Gaza. They were focused on what happened there exclusively regarding ramadan and what set the chain of events. Do you see the difference?

The Irish Times are liberal, but also a high quality news source.
 

CowboyJD

The Voice of Reason...occasionally......rarely
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Dec 10, 2004
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#83
The tweet is disingenuous as it is meant to garner support for the state of Israel because of its patience of not evicting 6 palestinian families from jewish owned land, when in the same time period, there have been tens of thousands of palestinians forcefully removed from their land so jewish settlers can build settlements there. Leaving out that not-so-small detail is problematic, is it not?

Yes, the Irish Times is liberal by american standards. It is also less likely to be mired in the american political food fight on this topic.

Israel has been an unequal partner in our dealings with them. They are the #1 recipient for our foreign aid, by a wide margin, we heavily subsidize their military, they have an undue amount of influence in our foreign policy, many times due to evangelical and fundamentalist's dispensationalist beliefs and the huge sums of money organizations like AIPAC are able to utilize.

The reality is that the current state of Israel is almost identical to the apartheid regime of 1980's South Africa. Their mechanisms of control and race relations are very, very similar. For ethical reasons, I don't think we should support Israel until they clean up their act and Netanyahu's regime is out of power.

This doesn't excuse the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization or the terrorism perpetrated by some palestinians, although since Israel holds the power, they have a greater responsibility to act with integrity here. As I said before, both have a right to exist.
Like most things in life, the issue is very complicated and not apt for binary, black and white, either/or propositions and analysis.

Unfortunately, that’s mostly exactly what you’re gonna get here.
 

Rack

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Oct 13, 2004
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#87
Certainty, shouting down, and lack of nuance...it's what the internet was made for
There is no doubt this is a nuanced thing, but it's obvious one side is a terror group that is inviting destruction on it's own civilian population. 1 in 3 of it's over 1,300 missiles launched at Israel landed on it's own people. Hamas needs to be kicked to the curb by not only Israel, but Palestine and the rest of the world. Single them out and surgically remove them from that society and free the people of Gaza so that they can develop their land and live in peace with their neighbor Israel. You and others can play both sides all you want, but it's a massive distortion of reality and history to over play that hand to the determent of not only the region and Israel specifically, but also the rest of freedom loving world of all religions and groups.
 

CowboyJD

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#88
There is no doubt this is a nuanced thing, but it's obvious one side is a terror group that is inviting destruction on it's own civilian population. 1 in 3 of it's over 1,300 missiles launched at Israel landed on it's own people. Hamas needs to be kicked to the curb by not only Israel, but Palestine and the rest of the world. Single them out and surgically remove them from that society and free the people of Gaza so that they can develop their land and live in peace with their neighbor Israel. You and others can play both sides all you want, but it's a massive distortion of reality and history to over play that hand to the determent of not only the region and Israel specifically, but also the rest of freedom loving world of all religions and groups.
Sure sounds like you think this is an obvious clear cut, black and white, either/or, binary choice....despite your lip service disclaimer at the beginning.
 

Rack

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#89
Sure sounds like you think this is an obvious clear cut, black and white, either/or, binary choice....despite your lip service disclaimer at the beginning.
Just because it’s very clear cut doesn’t mean that others, who don’t deserve this at all, won’t suffer as a result of the continuing actions of the terror group that is currently instigating this and has control
Of Palestine with their fist. It’s time for them to be a thing of the past and for rule of law to be a thing in the region.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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#90
Sure sounds like you think this is an obvious clear cut, black and white, either/or, binary choice....despite your lip service disclaimer at the beginning.
That not at all how I interpreted his post. There is no doubt there are several issues going one within the large dispute. Should there be one-state or two-state solution? What about settlers in specific regions? Government authority over Palestine? Could Israel do better with treatment of settlers?

But there is also one side that the US has supported as a key ally in the region for decades. And the other side that utilizes/allows a known terrorist organization to fight.

I am sure the Biden Administration, as well as past administrations, have quietly encouraged Israel to act a certain way, but publicly we need to support Israel.
 

CowboyJD

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#91
Just because it’s very clear cut doesn’t mean that others, who don’t deserve this at all, won’t suffer as a result of the continuing actions of the terror group that is currently instigating this and has control
Of Palestine with their fist. It’s time for them to be a thing of the past and for rule of law to be a thing in the region.
Also doesn't sound in any way like you believe the conflict is in any way whatsoever a "nuanced thing".
 

Rack

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#92
Also doesn't sound in any way like you believe the conflict is in any way whatsoever a "nuanced thing".
No it is, but it’s also pretty clear how gives better access to holy sites of three world religions and attempts to provide freedom of religion. It’s also very clear who conducts free and fair elections and is our biggest, by far, ally in the region. No this isn’t hard for me and not nueanced for me near as much as some on this board...but still it does have to do with the historic length of time we are talking about historically and the problems that has caused pain and suffering for each. My hope is that they can have a real and a lasting peace but, for that to happen the terror group has to end
 

okstate987

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#93
Just because it’s very clear cut doesn’t mean that others, who don’t deserve this at all, won’t suffer as a result of the continuing actions of the terror group that is currently instigating this and has control
Of Palestine with their fist. It’s time for them to be a thing of the past and for rule of law to be a thing in the region.
You mention the rule of law. Does this apply to Israel and the illegal siezure of palestinian land and the building of jewish settlements on it, or are they exempt?
 

CowboyJD

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#94
No it is, but it’s also pretty clear how gives better access to holy sites of three world religions and attempts to provide freedom of religion. It’s also very clear who conducts free and fair elections and is our biggest, by far, ally in the region. No this isn’t hard for me and not nueanced for me near as much as some on this board...but still it does have to do with the historic length of time we are talking about historically and the problems that has caused pain and suffering for each. My hope is that they can have a real and a lasting peace but, for that to happen the terror group has to end
You keep saying it is "nuanced" followed immediately with detailed statements indicating that there isn't any nuance in the issue for you.

This one for example

A claim that you agree it's nuanced....followed by

Pretty clear
Very clear
Isn't hard for me
For real and lasting peace...the terror group has to end
 

Rack

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#95
You keep saying it is "nuanced" followed immediately with detailed statements indicating that there isn't any nuance in the issue for you.

This one for example

A claim that you agree it's nuanced....followed by

Pretty clear
Very clear
Isn't hard for me
For real and lasting peace...the terror group has to end
I take some pride in the fact that this issue is pretty clear cut for me...but that doesn’t mean it’s not more nuanced for others like yourself...throwing you a bone is my nature. Once again, if over 1,300 rockets and counting were shot at a USA city you live in by a Terror group hiding among civilians, what would you want done? Clear cut or nuanced be damned.
 
Nov 6, 2010
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#96
Just because it’s very clear cut doesn’t mean that others, who don’t deserve this at all, won’t suffer as a result of the continuing actions of the terror group that is currently instigating this and has control
Of Palestine with their fist. It’s time for them to be a thing of the past and for rule of law to be a thing in the region.
The problem with that is there has to be an alternative. Prior to BiBi, there was a peace process and negotiations. Now you can argue how serious or constructive they were or weren't, but at least there was something for the folks who want peace to engage in. Now, that process has been abandoned and it appears the Palestinians are expected to just die or move away in favor of ever expanding Jewish settlements. In fact I believe what set this latest round off was the planned eviction of several hundred Palestinians from their homes so the Israeli's could move in.

Having said that, a peace process is so difficult because of generational hatred on both sides. There is plenty of blame to go around because of that hatred. I just don't see how it ever gets fixed.
 

RxCowboy

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#98
There is no doubt this is a nuanced thing, but it's obvious one side is a terror group that is inviting destruction on it's own civilian population. 1 in 3 of it's over 1,300 missiles launched at Israel landed on it's own people. Hamas needs to be kicked to the curb by not only Israel, but Palestine and the rest of the world. Single them out and surgically remove them from that society and free the people of Gaza so that they can develop their land and live in peace with their neighbor Israel. You and others can play both sides all you want, but it's a massive distortion of reality and history to over play that hand to the determent of not only the region and Israel specifically, but also the rest of freedom loving world of all religions and groups.
Is it nuanced or is it obvious?