Jan. 6 sentencing...

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Oct 7, 2008
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Glad that we are prosecuting the rioters to the full extent of the law. What they did was a stain not only to the electoral process, but America.

But curious to know what "great deal of Republicans" coordinated with the Proud Boys to subvert democracy? I just watched a long (10-min) CNN news story on the Proud Boys charge and they didn't mention coordination with elected officials one time. It has been 17 months since that event --- I assume if there were even a small amount of Republicans that coordinated with the Proud Boys to subvert democracy we would have heard about it by now.
Sorry, shouldn't have said coordination since we don't have direct evidence of that. What I should have said was it's clear a good number of Republicans and the mob they called to the Capitol on January 6th had the same goal- to stop the transfer of power to a democratically elected President (ie subvert democracy).

In my mind, every Republican who pushed the stolen election lie did so in an attempt to prevent the transfer of power to a fairly elected President. Every Republican who voted not to certify was attempting that same thing. Every Republican involved with the fraudulent slate of electors, with Trump's attempt to pressure the Georgia Sec of State to find the exact number of votes needed to win, all those who pressured Pence not to certify, everyone who attempted to seize voting machines. I mean this is all just off the top of my head, but there was in insane amount of effort on behalf of Republicans to override the will of the people all in the name of maintaining power, and all in the name of what they knew was a lie.
 
Mar 11, 2006
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Sorry, shouldn't have said coordination since we don't have direct evidence of that. What I should have said was it's clear a good number of Republicans and the mob they called to the Capitol on January 6th had the same goal- to stop the transfer of power to a democratically elected President (ie subvert democracy).

In my mind, every Republican who pushed the stolen election lie did so in an attempt to prevent the transfer of power to a fairly elected President. Every Republican who voted not to certify was attempting that same thing. Every Republican involved with the fraudulent slate of electors, with Trump's attempt to pressure the Georgia Sec of State to find the exact number of votes needed to win, all those who pressured Pence not to certify, everyone who attempted to seize voting machines. I mean this is all just off the top of my head, but there was in insane amount of effort on behalf of Republicans to override the will of the people all in the name of maintaining power, and all in the name of what they knew was a lie.
I think the Republicans who voted not to certify were making a stupid last ditch effort to delay certification of Biden. I think they were absolutely in the wrong.

But there is A LOT of recent precedent for politicians voting against certification. In fact, the last three times a Republican was elected President there was several Democrats who voted against certifying the electoral results.
 

TheMonkey

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I think the Republicans who voted not to certify were making a stupid last ditch effort to delay certification of Biden. I think they were absolutely in the wrong.

But there is A LOT of recent precedent for politicians voting against certification. In fact, the last three times a Republican was elected President there was several Democrats who voted against certifying the electoral results.
Don’t faint, but I almost said the same thing. The distinction is whether they voted against the certification as an act of protest, knowing it wouldn’t deter the certification… or if they intended to delay or nullify the certification and overturn the will of the people. I don’t agree with either scenario, but only one of those is a threat to our democracy.
 

Cimarron

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Jun 28, 2007
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Sorry, shouldn't have said coordination since we don't have direct evidence of that. What I should have said was it's clear a good number of Republicans and the mob they called to the Capitol on January 6th had the same goal- to stop the transfer of power to a democratically elected President (ie subvert democracy).

In my mind, every Republican who pushed the stolen election lie did so in an attempt to prevent the transfer of power to a fairly elected President. Every Republican who voted not to certify was attempting that same thing. Every Republican involved with the fraudulent slate of electors, with Trump's attempt to pressure the Georgia Sec of State to find the exact number of votes needed to win, all those who pressured Pence not to certify, everyone who attempted to seize voting machines. I mean this is all just off the top of my head, but there was in insane amount of effort on behalf of Republicans to override the will of the people all in the name of maintaining power, and all in the name of what they knew was a lie.
Did every Democrat who pushed the Trump/Russia collusion lie do so in an attempt to frame the President of the United States and remove a fairly elected President from office?
 

Cimarron

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Jun 28, 2007
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I think the Republicans who voted not to certify were making a stupid last ditch effort to delay certification of Biden. I think they were absolutely in the wrong.

But there is A LOT of recent precedent for politicians voting against certification. In fact, the last three times a Republican was elected President there was several Democrats who voted against certifying the electoral results.
As I recall there were more Democrats who voted against certification of Trump in 2016 that Republicans who voted against certification of Biden in 2020. This idea Democrats push that it's only Republicans simply isn't true.
 

Duke Silver

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As I recall there were more Democrats who voted against certification of Trump in 2016 that Republicans who voted against certification of Biden in 2020. This idea Democrats push that it's only Republicans simply isn't true.
Do you have any way to back this up? Because I would have no idea how to find it.
 

Binman4OSU

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Do you have any way to back this up? Because I would have no idea how to find it.
Dems vocally Objected to 7 states but never Officially objected any of them. For a formal objection and vote to not certify the result a House member AND A Senate member must formally sign the objection and put it forward. No Dem Senator's would formally submit the objections in writing in early 2017 and thus no "official" objection was ever on record.

Republicans Objected to 6 states and were able to Get Senators/House Reps to sign on to 2 of those Objections and formally have them considered. Thus setting up a potential vote on NOT ceritifying those states Electoral Votes..... and they were expecting all 6 to get Senators to sign on and make formal objections to send to a vote to reject the Electoral votes....but that was on Jan 6th....and well it all shut down after that day.

Dems made a vocal complaint in 7 states but never followed the process out to actually vote to NOT certify Electoral votes. Republicans made a vocal complaint in 6 states. Got two to be formally Recognized (had strong support in the party to dispute all 6 formally) and set up a situation where they could vote to decertify but then the Riots happened.

The Claim
During impeachment proceedings on January 13, Representative Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) claimed that "Democrats objected to more states in 2017 than Republicans did last week but somehow we're wrong."


The Facts
In the 2016 presidential election, Trump won 304 electoral votes to Hillary Clinton's 227. During the joint session on January 6, 2017, seven House Democrats tried to object to electoral votes from multiple states.

According to a C-SPAN recording of the joint session that took place four years ago, the following House Democrats made objections:

  • Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) objected to Alabama's votes.
  • Jamie Raskin (D-Md.) objected to Florida's votes.
  • Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) objected to Georgia's votes.
  • Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.) objected to North Carolina's votes.
  • Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) objected to the votes from North Carolina in addition to votes from South Carolina and Wisconsin. She also stood up and objected citing "massive voter suppression" after Mississippi's votes were announced.
  • Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) brought up allegations of Russian interference in the election and malfunctioning voting machines when she objected following the announcement of Michigan's votes.
  • Maxine Waters (D-Calif) rose and said, "I do not wish to debate. I wish to ask 'Is there one United States senator who will join me in this letter of objection?'" after the announcement of Wyoming's votes.
For an objection to be considered, it must be submitted in writing and signed by a member of both the House and Senate. Because no senators signed onto the objections made by House Democrats in 2017, then-Vice President Biden by law denied all of the objections, repeatedly saying "there is no debate."

When the joint session to certify the results of the 2020 presidential election resumed late on January 6, 2021, after the riot, Republicans from the House and Senate made objections to votes from several states.

I do not wish to debate. I wish to ask 'Is there one United States senator who will join me in this letter of objection?'
Representative Maxine Waters
According to Forbes, "Rep. Paul Gosar (R-Ariz.) and Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) signed an objection to Arizona's electoral votes for Biden" while the objection to Pennsylvania's votes were "lodged by Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) and Rep. Scott Perry (R-Pa.)." About 14 senators and 140 House Republicans were originally expected to vote in favor of the objection to Arizona's votes.

According to Vox, the objections to Arizona's votes wound up being backed by only six Republicans in the Senate and 121 House Republicans. The objections to Pennsylvania votes received support from seven Republican senators and 138 House Republicans.

Forbes reported that the following House Republicans made objections during the joint session last week:

  • Mo Brooks (R-Ala.) objected to Nevada's votes.
  • Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) objected to Michigan's votes.
  • Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) objected to Wisconsin's votes.
The above objections were rejected by Pence because they lacked the signature of a senator.

  • Jody Hice (R-Ga.) objected to Georgia's votes, but the objection was denied because senators had withdrawn their support following the riot.
Senator Kelly Loeffler (R-Ga.), who lost her seat to Reverend Raphael Warnock, previously declared that she would object to the certification of Biden's votes, but she changed her mind following the Capitol insurrection.

The events that transpired have forced me to reconsider and I cannot now in good conscience object to certification of these electors.
Senator Kelly Loeffler
"The events that transpired have forced me to reconsider and I cannot now in good conscience object to certification of these electors," Loeffler said on the Senate floor. "The violence, the lawlessness and siege of the halls of Congress are abhorrent and stand as a direct attack on what my objection was intended to protect, the sanctity of the American democratic process."

In total, Republicans made objections to votes from six states: Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. By the end of the joint session, Biden's 306 electoral votes were certified, just as Trump's votes had been certified in 2017.

The Ruling
True.

Even though Republicans were able to get two objections formally considered in 2021, they objected to votes from only six states. It should be noted, however, that the Capitol riot earlier in the day kept the number of objections lower than expected.

In 2017, House Democrats objected to votes from Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Wisconsin. Objections also were made after the announcement of votes from Mississippi, Michigan and Wyoming, adding up to nine states. None of the nine objections was considered because they lacked the signature of a senator.

READ MORE
 

TheMonkey

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As I recall there were more Democrats who voted against certification of Trump in 2016 that Republicans who voted against certification of Biden in 2020. This idea Democrats push that it's only Republicans simply isn't true.
Dems vocally Objected to 7 states but never Officially objected any of them. For a formal objection and vote to not certify the result a House member AND A Senate member must formally sign the objection and put it forward. No Dem Senator's would formally submit the objections in writing in early 2017 and thus no "official" objection was ever on record.

Republicans Objected to 6 states and were able to Get Senators/House Reps to sign on to 2 of those Objections and formally have them considered. Thus setting up a potential vote on NOT ceritifying those states Electoral Votes..... and they were expecting all 6 to get Senators to sign on and make formal objections to send to a vote to reject the Electoral votes....but that was on Jan 6th....and well it all shut down after that day.

Dems made a vocal complaint in 7 states but never followed the process out to actually vote to NOT certify Electoral votes. Republicans made a vocal complaint in 6 states. Got two to be formally Recognized (had strong support in the party to dispute all 6 formally) and set up a situation where they could vote to decertify but then the Riots happened.

The Claim
During impeachment proceedings on January 13, Representative Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) claimed that "Democrats objected to more states in 2017 than Republicans did last week but somehow we're wrong."


The Facts
In the 2016 presidential election, Trump won 304 electoral votes to Hillary Clinton's 227. During the joint session on January 6, 2017, seven House Democrats tried to object to electoral votes from multiple states.

According to a C-SPAN recording of the joint session that took place four years ago, the following House Democrats made objections:

  • Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) objected to Alabama's votes.
  • Jamie Raskin (D-Md.) objected to Florida's votes.
  • Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) objected to Georgia's votes.
  • Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.) objected to North Carolina's votes.
  • Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) objected to the votes from North Carolina in addition to votes from South Carolina and Wisconsin. She also stood up and objected citing "massive voter suppression" after Mississippi's votes were announced.
  • Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) brought up allegations of Russian interference in the election and malfunctioning voting machines when she objected following the announcement of Michigan's votes.
  • Maxine Waters (D-Calif) rose and said, "I do not wish to debate. I wish to ask 'Is there one United States senator who will join me in this letter of objection?'" after the announcement of Wyoming's votes.
For an objection to be considered, it must be submitted in writing and signed by a member of both the House and Senate. Because no senators signed onto the objections made by House Democrats in 2017, then-Vice President Biden by law denied all of the objections, repeatedly saying "there is no debate."

When the joint session to certify the results of the 2020 presidential election resumed late on January 6, 2021, after the riot, Republicans from the House and Senate made objections to votes from several states.

I do not wish to debate. I wish to ask 'Is there one United States senator who will join me in this letter of objection?'
Representative Maxine Waters
According to Forbes, "Rep. Paul Gosar (R-Ariz.) and Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Tex.) signed an objection to Arizona's electoral votes for Biden" while the objection to Pennsylvania's votes were "lodged by Sen. Josh Hawley (R-Mo.) and Rep. Scott Perry (R-Pa.)." About 14 senators and 140 House Republicans were originally expected to vote in favor of the objection to Arizona's votes.

According to Vox, the objections to Arizona's votes wound up being backed by only six Republicans in the Senate and 121 House Republicans. The objections to Pennsylvania votes received support from seven Republican senators and 138 House Republicans.

Forbes reported that the following House Republicans made objections during the joint session last week:

  • Mo Brooks (R-Ala.) objected to Nevada's votes.
  • Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-Ga.) objected to Michigan's votes.
  • Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) objected to Wisconsin's votes.
The above objections were rejected by Pence because they lacked the signature of a senator.

  • Jody Hice (R-Ga.) objected to Georgia's votes, but the objection was denied because senators had withdrawn their support following the riot.
Senator Kelly Loeffler (R-Ga.), who lost her seat to Reverend Raphael Warnock, previously declared that she would object to the certification of Biden's votes, but she changed her mind following the Capitol insurrection.

The events that transpired have forced me to reconsider and I cannot now in good conscience object to certification of these electors.
Senator Kelly Loeffler
"The events that transpired have forced me to reconsider and I cannot now in good conscience object to certification of these electors," Loeffler said on the Senate floor. "The violence, the lawlessness and siege of the halls of Congress are abhorrent and stand as a direct attack on what my objection was intended to protect, the sanctity of the American democratic process."

In total, Republicans made objections to votes from six states: Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. By the end of the joint session, Biden's 306 electoral votes were certified, just as Trump's votes had been certified in 2017.

The Ruling
True.

Even though Republicans were able to get two objections formally considered in 2021, they objected to votes from only six states. It should be noted, however, that the Capitol riot earlier in the day kept the number of objections lower than expected.

In 2017, House Democrats objected to votes from Alabama, Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Wisconsin. Objections also were made after the announcement of votes from Mississippi, Michigan and Wyoming, adding up to nine states. None of the nine objections was considered because they lacked the signature of a senator.

READ MORE
I’ll admit I was wrong. i don’t expect Cimm to do the same.
 

Binman4OSU

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Stupid about AGW!!
I’ll admit I was wrong. i don’t expect Cimm to do the same.
well Cim did say that more Dems voted to object Trump Certification.

That claim is not true.

In reality NIETHER election actually made it to the formal vote to NOT certify either election.

Vocal Objections are not votes, but it is true to say the Dems did vocally Object to more states in 2016 than the Republicans in 2020
 

CowboyJD

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I’ll admit I was wrong. i don’t expect Cimm to do the same.
Vocal objections with no substance or legal effect and that don't even go to vote aren't the same thing as written objections to certification of State results from both a House and Senate member which has the effect of requiring a vote on certification of those states votes.

In 2020, there were two of the latter (Arizona and Pennsylvania).
In 2016, there were zero of those.

What Cim said wasn't accurate either.

As I recall there were more Democrats who voted against certification of Trump in 2016 that Republicans who voted against certification of Biden in 2020. This idea Democrats push that it's only Republicans simply isn't true.
Since none of the objections by House Members were joined by Senate members in 2016, there weren't ACTUALLY ANY votes against certification of electors for any state then. The challenges were disallowed.

In 2020, there actually were votes against certification of electors from Arizona and Pennsylvania.

"Objections" aren't "votes against certification". They are a different animal.

Here's your scorecard for what actually occurred:

2016: 9 oral objections from 9 Democrats, 0 written letter objections, zero votes on certification of individual state electors.

2016: 6 oral objections from six Republicans, 2 written letter objections joined by Senate Republicans (for a total involvement of 8 Republicans not counting Loeffler who withdrew her written support), and two votes on certification of electors (from Arizona and Pennsylvania) where a total of 272 Republican votes against certification were lodged (127 against certification in Arizona and 145 against certification in Pennsylvania....many Republicans likely voted against both...that's why I wrote a total of 272 "Republican votes" against rather than "272 Republicans voting against")

And now....as Paul Harvey used to say....you have the rest of the story.
 
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Cimarron

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George Wallace (Democrat*) made the attempt in 1969

Democrats made the attempt in 2001

Democrats made the attempt in 2005

Democrats made the attempt in 2017

Republicans made the attempt in 2021

* ran as an American Independent Party candidate in 1968
 
Feb 11, 2007
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George Wallace (Democrat*) made the attempt in 1969

Democrats made the attempt in 2001

Democrats made the attempt in 2005

Democrats made the attempt in 2017

Republicans made the attempt in 2021

* ran as an American Independent Party candidate in 1968
You are right. This, history shows, has been going on for a very very long time.
 

StillwaterTownie

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Sorry, shouldn't have said coordination since we don't have direct evidence of that. What I should have said was it's clear a good number of Republicans and the mob they called to the Capitol on January 6th had the same goal- to stop the transfer of power to a democratically elected President (ie subvert democracy).

In my mind, every Republican who pushed the stolen election lie did so in an attempt to prevent the transfer of power to a fairly elected President. Every Republican who voted not to certify was attempting that same thing. Every Republican involved with the fraudulent slate of electors, with Trump's attempt to pressure the Georgia Sec of State to find the exact number of votes needed to win, all those who pressured Pence not to certify, everyone who attempted to seize voting machines. I mean this is all just off the top of my head, but there was in insane amount of effort on behalf of Republicans to override the will of the people all in the name of maintaining power, and all in the name of what they knew was a lie.
Trump was terrible beyond belief and went on to become the world's sorest loser. If only Trump had said he learned a lot from Reagan, rather than from Nixon, he would still be president now. For starters, as a result, he would have never called certain members of his own party "human scum".

"But when the President does it, that means it is not illegal." President Richard Nixon
"I am not a crook." President Richard Nixon

"I have learned a lot from Richard Nixon." President Donald Trump.
 
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Mar 11, 2006
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Don’t faint, but I almost said the same thing. The distinction is whether they voted against the certification as an act of protest, knowing it wouldn’t deter the certification… or if they intended to delay or nullify the certification and overturn the will of the people. I don’t agree with either scenario, but only one of those is a threat to our democracy.
The post that I first replied was about Republicans voting against electoral certification and that they were doing it to subvert democracy. I may not agree with Senator Lankford on every issue and I certainly disagreed with him opposing certification of Biden's victory, but I don't at all think he did it trying to subvert democracy (note: he did withdraw his opposition immediately after the Capitol riot).

Unfortunately, opposing certification of the electoral results became common-place after Bush-Gore and I think most elected officials were doing their best, within legal means, to challenge results (playing politics at its worst). Obviously, there were a small amount of others (ie faking electoral vote list, etc) that went outside legal means and should hopefully be charged.

I wish voters would punish the Republicans that opposed certification ---- but they won't ---- especially House members which many have a strong political hold in highly red districts. It was the same for the Democrats who opposed certification multiple times earlier --- they never got hurt by voters. Some like Ed Markey seemingly got rewarded ...he was appointed Senator after opposing Bush certification.

(Hypocritically, Markey famously referred to Republicans who opposed Biden's certification as "seditious", somehow conveniently forgetting that he opposed and voted against certification twice previously).
 
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