Mike Holder

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Rack

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Yeah..... We should've learned our lesson not to hire non-alums after hiring bums like Henry Iba & Gary Ward. ;)

Don't get me wrong, If all things are equal I would take an alum over an outside candidate seven days a week. The problem is in MBB Coach Self is the only alum I know of that has proven he has what it takes to win at this level. I don't see him leaving Kansas unless it's late in his coaching career to come home to his alma mater.
Both of those guys worked in a time when coaches barely made any money and loyalty was key...NO ONE paid coaches in comparable ways to how they are paid now...so the dynamic has changed quite a bit since those days.

Mr. Iba was a saint...he wouldn't have left a job he was committed to for mere money...in fact when the auto dealers from OKC tried to get him to let them fund our football program with their slush fund he refused on the principle that all that money would spoil amature athletics. It has.
 
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wrenhal

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IMO thisis not nearly as complicated as many are making it out to be, MH offered 1.8-2.4 depending on who you listen to and BU wanted 2.8-3 again depending on who you listen to. Other schools had, obviously, already made clear they were in line with what he was asking and BU, right or wrong, believed that Holder wasn't. Once that happens it's just waiting for the ink to dry, how he left is different than why, it seems that MH was surprised but is everyone sure the players weren't informed or is this speculation. In the end a good coach and a better fit got away but I just don't think either of the principals is to blame, sometimes events conspire against us, this looks like one of those times. If it was more than money then that's different, perhaps it's not coaches MH doesn't do well with, maybe it's agents and if so that is a major flaw for a tier1 AD.
I'm now hearing that at some point on Saturday he had a very quick meeting with the team that was basically "see ya" and he left.

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Both of those guys worked in a time when coaches barely made any money and loyalty was key...NO ONE paid coaches in comparable ways to how they are paid now...so the dynamic has changed quite a bit since those days.
That's true. But the fact remains that the majority of great coaches have success at schools that aren't their alma mater. Look at the best college basketball coaches in the world right now. Out of Bill Self, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo & Coach K, three of the four aren't at their alma-mater. I would love to hire a MBB coach that's an alum, but I don't see any qualified candidates that would come here.
 
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ksupoke

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Both of those guys worked in a time when coaches barely made any money and loyalty was key...NO ONE paid coaches in comparable ways to how they are paid now...so the dynamic has changed quite a bit since those days.

Mr. Iba was a saint...he wouldn't have left a job he was committed to for mere money...in fact when the auto dealers from OKC tried to get him to let them fund our football program with their slush fund he refused on the principle that money would spoil armature athletics. It has.
I know it appears that I'm only addressing you but that's not the case it's just you are the most vociferous so a reply to you is a reply to all. You are ignoring a hugely important element in all this, agents. BU has an agent he has a job maximizing his clients earnings potential. If he doesn't he didn't live up to his contract. MH can have the best of relationships with a coach but in this day and age that's only part of the equation and in many cases it's not the most important element. BU was never 'tied' to OSU beyond a monetary contract so it makes sense that his agent would do his job and attempt to maximize his earnings. If, I repeat, if MH doesn't play well with agents then that is a major flaw in his ability to perform at least some part of his duties as an AD. You can piss off a coach through his agent and never know you pissed him off.
 

ksupoke

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And just to stoke the fire, I'd offer (I think the guy on staff's name is Evans) the position and get him a solid #2 & 3 at least one of which would have reasonably successful d1 hc experience.
 
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That's true. But the fact remains that the majority of great coaches have success at schools that aren't there alma mater. Look at the best college basketball coaches in the world right now. Out of Bill Self, Roy Williams, Tom Izzo & Coach K, three of the four aren't at their alma-mater. I would love to hire a MBB coach that's an alum, but I don't see any qualified candidates that would come here.
And to be fair, Williams wasn't at his alma mater until He was well-established. He was at Kansas for 16 years before he went back.
 

Rack

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I know it appears that I'm only addressing you but that's not the case it's just you are the most vociferous so a reply to you is a reply to all. You are ignoring a hugely important element in all this, agents. BU has an agent he has a job maximizing his clients earnings potential. If he doesn't he didn't live up to his contract. MH can have the best of relationships with a coach but in this day and age that's only part of the equation and in many cases it's not the most important element. BU was never 'tied' to OSU beyond a monetary contract so it makes sense that his agent would do his job and attempt to maximize his earnings. If, I repeat, if MH doesn't play well with agents then that is a major flaw in his ability to perform at least some part of his duties as an AD. You can piss off a coach through his agent and never know you pissed him off.
true and sad that it has come to that...agents are all about maximizing their own pocketbooks by getting the most money out of schools that they can...they are leaches in the college game, but understandable in the pros.
 

Rack

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And just to stoke the fire, I'd offer (I think the guy on staff's name is Evans) the position and get him a solid #2 & 3 at least one of which would have reasonably successful d1 hc experience.
Offer BU's best assistant all kinds of jack just to stoke him...love it. :lol:
 
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From Barry Tramels article today:

"But even more importantly, Underwood came to believe that Illinois valued basketball more than did OSU. That's from sources close to Underwood, who while admitting that money matters, pointed out that Underwood became disenchanted with athletic director Mike Holder's negotiating statements, even to the point of feeling insulted."

Also

"But sources say any chance of a compromise on Underwood's part were squelched Monday when during a meeting he felt insulted by Holder. The source said that Underwood was told by Holder that Ford won more games in his first year than did Underwood and went on to make five NCAA Tournaments. The source said that Underwood was so angry he got up to leave the office at that point, though Holder convinced him to stay."


“I think that was really hurtful,” the source said. “I believe that was the dagger.”

If not, the dagger came a few minutes later. When discussing the value of OSU basketball on campus, the source said, Holder told Underwood he was asking for Final Four-type money and that the Cowboys currently are on a level of Iowa State, Texas Tech and Kansas State in the Big 12.

He was going to Illinois the moment Holder said that to him,” the source said. “What he was looking for, Holder's vision for the program, ‘I believe you can get us up to KU and Bill Self and blah-blah,' and that just wasn't what he heard.”

Then Illinois came calling, and athletic director Josh Whitman sold Underwood on how much the Illini value basketball, saying Illinois wants to have the top program in the nation. “What I just heard from my boss,” Underwood told the source, “we want a program about equal to Iowa State, Texas Tech and Kansas State.”

Great leadership and negotiation skills there kids...still want to talk about leaving for more money, or should we talk about vision and leadership?
 
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Those quotes don't seem out of line, BU WAS asking for Final Four type money yet we are currently at the level of the schools Holder mentioned. I didn't take that to mean those were the schools Holder wanted to emulate or that was his vision for the program.
I think if he really did love it here, take the 2.2 mill and with additional success get even more money later.
 
Nov 18, 2011
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From Barry Tramels article today:

"But even more importantly, Underwood came to believe that Illinois valued basketball more than did OSU. That's from sources close to Underwood, who while admitting that money matters, pointed out that Underwood became disenchanted with athletic director Mike Holder's negotiating statements, even to the point of feeling insulted."

Also

"But sources say any chance of a compromise on Underwood's part were squelched Monday when during a meeting he felt insulted by Holder. The source said that Underwood was told by Holder that Ford won more games in his first year than did Underwood and went on to make five NCAA Tournaments. The source said that Underwood was so angry he got up to leave the office at that point, though Holder convinced him to stay."


“I think that was really hurtful,” the source said. “I believe that was the dagger.”

If not, the dagger came a few minutes later. When discussing the value of OSU basketball on campus, the source said, Holder told Underwood he was asking for Final Four-type money and that the Cowboys currently are on a level of Iowa State, Texas Tech and Kansas State in the Big 12.

He was going to Illinois the moment Holder said that to him,” the source said. “What he was looking for, Holder's vision for the program, ‘I believe you can get us up to KU and Bill Self and blah-blah,' and that just wasn't what he heard.”

Then Illinois came calling, and athletic director Josh Whitman sold Underwood on how much the Illini value basketball, saying Illinois wants to have the top program in the nation. “What I just heard from my boss,” Underwood told the source, “we want a program about equal to Iowa State, Texas Tech and Kansas State.”

Great leadership and negotiation skills there kids...still want to talk about leaving for more money, or should we talk about vision and leadership?
If true sounds like BU is super thin skinned, and a whiny baby. All Holder was telling him is that he couldn't justify tripling a guy's salary over one semi successful season. I imagine this guy is not going to get along with very many bosses if he gets his feelings hurt so easily and throws a tantrum.
 
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If true sounds like BU is super thin skinned, and a whiny baby. All Holder was telling him is that he couldn't justify tripling a guy's salary over one semi successful season. I imagine this guy is not going to get along with very many bosses if he gets his feelings hurt so easily and throws a tantrum.
This may be true, but I will say at SFA, they loved BU (we live in East Texas), so there were no issues there. The issue I am having is there is a way to say those things to BU without insulting a guy-"we believe in you, we want you here, we believe you can take take us to new heights and be a powerhouse in BB, but this is where we are with money...I can do this at the moment,etc...".

But it sounds like a lack of vision for the program the the AD was a major role in his leaving.

This is my issue and why I am so over Holder and his leadership...NO ONE wants to work for a boss who doesn't have a vision for your program and can motivate his coaches to that vision. And even if he does have a vision, the perception to the world now is that he doesn't. So the damage done seems irreparable and there needs to be a change in leadership.
 
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This may be true, but I will say at SFA, they loved BU (we live in East Texas), so there were no issues there. The issue I am having is there is a way to say those things to BU without insulting a guy-"we believe in you, we want you here, we believe you can take take us to new heights and be a powerhouse in BB, but this is where we are with money...I can do this at the moment,etc...".

But it sounds like a lack of vision for the program the the AD was a major role in his leaving.

This is my issue and why I am so over Holder and his leadership...NO ONE wants to work for a boss who doesn't have a vision for your program and can motivate his coaches to that vision. And even if he does have a vision, the perception to the world now is that he doesn't. So the damage done seems irreparable and there needs to be a change in leadership.
An offer to double his pay and he felt hurt wha wha wha
 

ksupoke

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IF true then MH shoulders 100% of the responsibility for this.
AND
It severely hampers the next search at least in terms of quality of candidates who would be interested, before you say lots of good coaches would jump at this opportunity remember a damned good one jumped and then bailed when another good/better offer came, getting the coach is great keeping him is critical.
 

GodsPeace

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IF true then MH shoulders 100% of the responsibility for this.
AND
It severely hampers the next search at least in terms of quality of candidates who would be interested, before you say lots of good coaches would jump at this opportunity remember a damned good one jumped and then bailed when another good/better offer came, getting the coach is great keeping him is critical.
I get the sense, from that article, that Holder didn't realize how quickly BU would make a move.
 
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Holder would have chose his words more wisely had he known what other programs were willing to pay BU. He probably only looked at K-State as a legitimate threat and knew they wouldn't pursue him this year. Now here we are. Unbelievably unfortunate.
 

ksupoke

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I get the sense, from that article, that Holder didn't realize how quickly BU would make a move.
That would mean Holders memory ends at roughly 368 days ;)

Btw, again IF true, Holder used the baseball arbitration (both sides make their proposal then explain why the offer is what it is and the arbitrator decides who wins) technique that's a sure way to irritate the other side and there's little goodwill on the side of the loser.
 
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Who would have thought? Coaches are always complaining how players today have to be coddled and have to be talked to gently. Turns out so do coaches.
 
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From Barry Tramels article today:

"But even more importantly, Underwood came to believe that Illinois valued basketball more than did OSU. That's from sources close to Underwood, who while admitting that money matters, pointed out that Underwood became disenchanted with athletic director Mike Holder's negotiating statements, even to the point of feeling insulted."

Also

"But sources say any chance of a compromise on Underwood's part were squelched Monday when during a meeting he felt insulted by Holder. The source said that Underwood was told by Holder that Ford won more games in his first year than did Underwood and went on to make five NCAA Tournaments. The source said that Underwood was so angry he got up to leave the office at that point, though Holder convinced him to stay."


“I think that was really hurtful,” the source said. “I believe that was the dagger.”

If not, the dagger came a few minutes later. When discussing the value of OSU basketball on campus, the source said, Holder told Underwood he was asking for Final Four-type money and that the Cowboys currently are on a level of Iowa State, Texas Tech and Kansas State in the Big 12.

He was going to Illinois the moment Holder said that to him,” the source said. “What he was looking for, Holder's vision for the program, ‘I believe you can get us up to KU and Bill Self and blah-blah,' and that just wasn't what he heard.”

Then Illinois came calling, and athletic director Josh Whitman sold Underwood on how much the Illini value basketball, saying Illinois wants to have the top program in the nation. “What I just heard from my boss,” Underwood told the source, “we want a program about equal to Iowa State, Texas Tech and Kansas State.”

Great leadership and negotiation skills there kids...still want to talk about leaving for more money, or should we talk about vision and leadership?
I dug my tinfoil hat back out.....

Holder hates hoops. It overshadows golf.
 
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