Mike Holder

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Aug 21, 2009
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You can argue that this is Holders fault and you can argue that BU was just looking for a way out or he always wanted to be at ILL. The problem I have is that BU is the only one that spent all his time here portraying himself as a loyal guy who's word means something and he would be her till he died... or Meanie Mike Holder hurt his wittle feelings.

The fact is BU is not who he said he is and he could have left this job the right way and treated his players the right way and treated the fans here at OSU the right way. All that would have taken would be a day or two of his life or even a press conference and a meeting with the team. A stand up loyal guy who's word means something would have done that.... Brad Underwood is not that guy and I'm glad he is not here to BS our players and fans anymore.
 
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Not here.
You can argue that this is Holders fault and you can argue that BU was just looking for a way out or he always wanted to be at ILL. The problem I have is that BU is the only one that spent all his time here portraying himself as a loyal guy who's word means something and he would be her till he died... or Meanie Mike Holder hurt his wittle feelings.

The fact is BU is not who he said he is and he could have left this job the right way and treated his players the right way and treated the fans here at OSU the right way. All that would have taken would be a day or two of his life or even a press conference and a meeting with the team. A stand up loyal guy who's word means something would have done that.... Brad Underwood is not that guy and I'm glad he is not here to BS our players and fans anymore.
I remember reading on a SFA message board that Underwood did pretty much the same thing with his players at SFA. It was also clear that he was negotiating his contract at OSU while he was coaching SFA in the tournament. The timing of his hire suggests that it couldn't have happened otherwise.

These are red flags that we maybe should have seen coming.
 

ksupoke

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I will say that this is exactly the same situation that lead to Travis Ford's contract. I think Underwood is 1-4 in the NCAA tournament. He was won games for sure. But we also had some great talent on the team.
The Ford contract is on Holder, using the Ford contract against Underwood is on Holder, I don't agree he should be fired he's done an excellent job overall but perhaps negotiations, with folks who have other options, are not his strong suit, the world of coaching and salaries has and continues to change, not sure he's keeping up.

BTW, you can be right and still be completely in the wrong, if you've ever argued with your wife you know that.
 
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Feb 5, 2008
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Fire Holder now. He has made too many mistakes. He has offended virtually every coach under him. Most fans are tired of him. Move on.
 
Aug 21, 2009
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The Ford contract is on Holder, using the Ford contract against Underwood is on Holder, I don't agree he should be fired he's done an excellent job overall but perhaps negotiations, with folks who have other options, are not his strong suit, the world of coaching and salaries has and continues to change, not sure he's keeping up.
IMO he is keeping up fine... BU did not deserve 3mil and I'm glad we didn't give it to him..... this guy is a lying mercenary with a fragile ego who doesn't care about his players and has NO character. good riddance.

BU pretended to be one of us... he isn't.
 
May 8, 2009
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Holder should take a page out of Mike Gundy's playbook he when he finally hired an OC. Hire (or let the school hire) a Director of Coaching placement and retention.

Hell, maybe Hargis.ought to do this independent of Holder.
 
Apr 14, 2008
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The Ford contract is on Holder, using the Ford contract against Underwood is on Holder, I don't agree he should be fired he's done an excellent job overall but perhaps negotiations, with folks who have other options, are not his strong suit, the world of coaching and salaries has and continues to change, not sure he's keeping up.

BTW, you can be right and still be completely in the wrong, if you've ever argued with your wife you know should that.
Holder mentioning Ford to Underwood was about as smart as getting into an disagreement with your spouse and saying how your Ex was better.

Underwood is dead to me. Let's move on
 

ksupoke

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IMO he is keeping up fine... BU did not deserve 3mil and I'm glad we didn't give it to him..... this guy is a lying mercenary with a fragile ego who doesn't care about his players and has NO character. good riddance.

BU pretended to be one of us... he isn't.
Any employee deserves what the market will bear, the market for Underwood is $3m per if you don't want to pay that, great (and I don't recall saying Holder should) but using your own past failure as a justification is not the most optimum approach. In terms of keeping up we'll agree to disagree. I don't think Holder should be fired I think he should be provided some additional assistance in certain areas.
 
Aug 21, 2009
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Any employee deserves what the market will bear, the market for Underwood is $3m per if you don't want to pay that, great (and I don't recall saying Holder should) but using your own past failure as a justification is not the most optimum approach. In terms of keeping up we'll agree to disagree. I don't think Holder should be fired I think he should be provided some additional assistance in certain areas.
Can you provide some kind of proof that he used his own past failure as a justification of any kind? I really don't know what you are referring to, 2.2m is right in line with the type of performance BU provided as a coach at OSU.

You obviously are not in charge of payroll because any employee does not necessarily deserve what the market will bear and when they don't... you let them go.
 

ksupoke

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Can you provide some kind of proof that he used his own past failure as a justification of any kind? I really don't know what you are referring to, 2.2m is right in line with the type of performance BU provided as a coach at OSU.

You obviously are not in charge of payroll because any employee does not necessarily deserve what the market will bear and when they don't... you let them go.
Holder brought up Ford so yes he used a past failure to negotiate against a current employee.
What the market will bear is what you deserve, will your current employer pay it is a different question. As for my professional background I'll let you think what you want but if you are really interested let me know and I'll give you some members here you can pm.

Holder has been an excellent AD, Underwood is already mid 50's (and other more lucrative offers on the table) so he's looking to maximize his earnings, I've said it before, there's no one to blame, both sides did what they thought was best, but that doesn't mean that IF the reports are true regarding these negotiations, that Holder doesn't shoulder the responsibility for what happened. Holder himself said he thought he had a great relationship with Underwood obviously he was wrong.
He pushed Gundy to the edge, he created the elephant in the room, TF contract, so 2 things can be equally true,
1 MH has been an excellent AD and there is no reason for him to move on
2 MH appears to not have kept up with the changing times re: coaches, coaches egos and salaries and should enlist some additional assistance in this regard.

I'm not going to engage you on what you may or may not be proficient in I suggest you return the favor, it serves no purpose.
 
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May 31, 2007
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This talk of Holder bringing up Ford to BU, first we don't even know if that's true. Second, if it was part of the conversation we don't know the context. For all we know it could have been BU bringing up Ford and requesting he get a similar pay increase as TF did after his early success. I think raking Holder over the coals on this deal is premature.
 
Aug 21, 2009
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Holder brought up Ford so yes he used a past failure to negotiate against a current employee.
What the market will bear is what you deserve, will your current employer pay it is a different question. As for my professional background I'll let you think what you want but if you are really interested let me know and I'll give you some members here you can pm.

Holder has been an excellent AD, Underwood is already mid 50's (and other more lucrative offers on the table) so he's looking to maximize his earnings, I've said it before, there's no one to blame, both sides did what they thought was best, but that doesn't mean that IF the reports are true regarding these negotiations, that Holder doesn't shoulder the responsibility for what happened. Holder himself said he thought he had a great relationship with Underwood obviously he was wrong.
He pushed Gundy to the edge, he created the elephant in the room, TF contract, so 2 things can be equally true,
1 MH has been an excellent AD and there is no reason for him to move on
2 MH appears to not have kept up with the changing times re: coaches, coaches egos and salaries and should enlist some additional assistance in this regard.

I'm not going to engage you on what you may or may not be proficient in I suggest you return the favor, it serves no purpose.
Holder told BU he didn't do as well as Ford did in his first season if that is what you are referring to. IMO that is not a past failure of Holder that is a current failure of BU....

The fact that Holder thought he had a great relationship with BU might be because BU lies about who he is and what he is thinking.... I'm pretty sure the entire Cowboy nation could attest to that as fact. The points you are making about a conversation that you didn't participate in and Trammel printed is no better than third hand. If I'm going to make assumptions about a third hand conversation about OSU I'm going to trust the side of the guy that donates his salary to OSU over the guy who took the money and ran.
 

ksupoke

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Holder told BU he didn't do as well as Ford did in his first season if that is what you are referring to. IMO that is not a past failure of Holder that is a current failure of BU....

The fact that Holder thought he had a great relationship with BU might be because BU lies about who he is and what he is thinking.... I'm pretty sure the entire Cowboy nation could attest to that as fact. The points you are making about a conversation that you didn't participate in and Trammel printed is no better than third hand. If I'm going to make assumptions about a third hand conversation about OSU I'm going to trust the side of the guy that donates his salary to OSU over the guy who took the money and ran.
In pretty much every post I've stated emphatically that IF the report is true then etc... and I've said that there's no reason to have him leave. You (and tbf) many others otoh have taken no such position and refuse to acknowledge that MH, MAY, in fact, given his recent history, have a flaw in dealing with the ever changing coaching landscape.
It's much different recruiting a golf or tennis or even baseball coach than one in which 10's of millions of dollars depends on that coaches success and as such puts them in high demand.

Again if the report is true there is another major issue, Ford took over a team that was not far off, 17-16 and 7-9 from a coach who had less professional and more personal demons and improved by 6 games overall and one game in conference as well as a still reasonably engaged fan base, hardly the stuff of legends, BU took a team that was at the bottom of a 4 yr slide worse record yr over yr all 4 yrs from 12-20 / 3-15 to 20-13 and 9-9 record and he reenergized a moribund fan base, call me crazy but I'm taking door #2 and I'm not bringing what was behind door #1 into the conversation.
Holder, if the report is true, blew it regarding the negotiations but that still doesn't mean he made a mistake in not paying $3m per for Underwood.
 
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Jan 17, 2011
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You can argue that this is Holders fault and you can argue that BU was just looking for a way out or he always wanted to be at ILL. The problem I have is that BU is the only one that spent all his time here portraying himself as a loyal guy who's word means something and he would be her till he died... or Meanie Mike Holder hurt his wittle feelings.

The fact is BU is not who he said he is and he could have left this job the right way and treated his players the right way and treated the fans here at OSU the right way. All that would have taken would be a day or two of his life or even a press conference and a meeting with the team. A stand up loyal guy who's word means something would have done that.... Brad Underwood is not that guy and I'm glad he is not here to BS our players and fans anymore.
What did you expect BU to do? He did exactly what EVERY OTHER COACH DOES. He walked in, told us how much he is vested in OSU, which ALL new coaches do, and then we get upset when he bails. if this was the first time this has ever happened, then we should take it personally, but this is just the nature of the sport today. You come in, find a weak connection to the university-spout it to the fan base, and we all get fired up and then get our feelings hurt when he leaves. It's how it works, and unless you get lucky and have an alumni who is a coach...and a good one at that....it's the same song and dance at every. School. Ever.

Again, the issue is not BU...It's Holder and his leadership. BU just exposed the problem to the world what many in the OSU family already knew. The good news is that people are now talking and acknowledging the problem. The bad news is that unless there is a change in leadership, your putting a bandaid on a heart wound and we will be back in this boat again with another coach down the road... and we will get the whole "aw shucks" routine again, and we will all have this same conversation again. I'm just praying it's not Gundy next...but then again he hasn't signed his contract extension yet...
 
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