• You are viewing Orangepower as a Guest. To start new threads, reply to posts, or participate in polls or contests - you must register. Registration is free and easy. Click Here to register.
  • Some things are still wonky, such as colors, some old attachments, features that need to be re-added, and the new 1st-party billing system. Bear with us while we clean up the database a tad.

Real Underwood coaching evaluation

#41
Kendrick summary: Underwood likes to cuss a lot. He did it in front of three 11 year old boys and made no apologies and actually told people how his cussed Solomon out during a practice.
He told Forte that he had not played in a meaningful game in his life and had not won anything. Forte later talked to Tyler Underwood about it and Tyler told him the same thing. (sounds like TU is just a mole for his dad).
Told a little about how he blew the recruiting of Trae Young but not much details.

Edit: I will say it seemed like a little bit like sour grapes to me. He never said a thing like this when Underwood was here. He is also going to defend Holder just like RA since they sorta of work for him and want to stay on his good side.
That makes sense though because a media personality in his position isn't going to bad mouth the current HC at a school that essentially is the reason he has a job.
 
#42
Brad was a great salesman. We liked the enthusiasm he was pumping into the program. But if Ford stayed, went 9-9 in league, lost his last 4 games.....he would have been roasted for this season.And for how soft we were on defense all year....Ford would have been placed in witness protection program.

Underwood was perceived optimistically because fans love hearing all the GIA, Sutton and Iba talk. They love hearing how he called this a destination job. It's the same reason these people think Gottlieb would be good. Fans are easily fooled.

We'll learn the truth about Brad in Illinois the next 6 years. He inherited a great situation at SFA from Denny Casper (conference champs the year before with loaded roster). He inherited one of the best guards in America here. And granted, he did a good job with those situations outside of our 0-6 conference start and 0-4 finish. The jury is out and he'll ultimately be judged for his extended time in Illinois. But he gets to make 18million while being judged now.
 

PanhandleCowboy

Point Guard
A/V Subscriber
#43
Tom Dirato is on now. He isn't trashing Underwood, but he was underwhelmed with him. He thought we should have been better with the talent we had. He says we had probably 3 of top 10 players in league (Evans, Forte, and Carroll). He said it goes against Mike Holder's character to not want to win championships and be successful. Holder expects every team to compete for championships. He called BS on that Underwood assertion.

He thinks Underwood is a "me" guy and has always had that opinion of him.
 

Takeout Slide

Hardcore Troubadour
#45
Got the feeling that "poor Brad" meeting with Holder wasn't quite what it was being portrayed in the DOK. Sounds like he is quite the hot head behind closed doors.
I was all in for Underwood and even after he left wanted to assume the best in him, but, IMO, that article was basically a hit piece. Secondhand quotes with no context and no indication that Holder was even given an opportunity to comment.

I'd bet my lifesavings that Trammel's source was Underwood's agent or someone in his camp.
 
#46
Tom Dirato is on now. He isn't trashing Underwood, but he was underwhelmed with him. He thought we should have been better with the talent we had. He says we had probably 3 of top 10 players in league (Evans, Forte, and Carroll). He said it goes against Mike Holder's character to not want to win championships and be successful. Holder expects every team to compete for championships. He called BS on that Underwood assertion.

He thinks Underwood is a "me" guy and has always had that opinion of him.

Dirato is a homer. Forte is great shooter, shrimp who cannot guard anyone!!! Evans and Carroll are good but puhlease. Holder needs to resign. Hire Doug Gottlieb.

Dirato might be correct about Holder wanting to win Championships. Perhaps that is bullcrap but I do think Holder screwed up badly. Hiring Doug could fix it.
 

Cimarron

It's not dying I'm talking about, it's living.
#47
The sky is not falling coaching wise. It may be player wise, we may lose recruits, have transfers and Jawun may go pro.

All of that said, Underwood was in way over his head. I emailed back and forth with the man several times. We talked about what he should be doing offensively. It was clear there that man was insanely stubborn. The 0-6 stretch was not because of the players it was completely on him. He could not adapt to the structure of this team. Danny Henderson saved this team and final convinced Underwood to change our defensive scheme. Underwood had to be convinced over and over again. He was so stubborn he wanted to stay with the up the line and down the line strategy no matter what even after we won.

The facts:
1: He had to be convinced to change a defensive scheme that was horribly flawed for his current team. It took him a painful 0-6 conference skid to change it.
2: My conversations with him were on how horribly he used Forte in the middle part of the season. The man had zero understanding how to use Forte and Juwan together.
3: 1-7 against the top 4 teams in our conference.
4- WVU game philosophy first time around, would not listen to his ast. coaches about the way to beat them. He was convinced slowing the pace of the game after made baskets was the right thing to do. We beat them the second time because coaches made him stop being so stubborn. He let his team inbound the ball when the press was not set and when it was ran press breakers.
5- Every single elite offensive team besides WS he lost to.

There a numerous other times this team under performed because of the coach. His leaving may have screwed us player wise but honestly he wasn't a great coach. If you believe he is, then you are hanging on the he is a Shaka Smart type guy limp, a coach who must have his perfect guys or else he is a fish out of water. I can see that point but he isn't Bill Self and not worth top 10 money in NCAA.
One thing that surprised me though was our ability this year on the offensive boards. We were a much better rebounding team than we've been in years to the best of my memory.
 

OSUMIKE17

Property of The Oklahoman and NewsOk.com
A/V Subscriber
#48
Dirato is a homer. Forte is great shooter, shrimp who cannot guard anyone!!! Evans and Carroll are good but puhlease. Holder needs to resign. Hire Doug Gottlieb.

Dirato might be correct about Holder wanting to win Championships. Perhaps that is bullcrap but I do think Holder screwed up badly. Hiring Doug could fix it.
Hiring Doug could also (and more likely) put the last nail in his coffin. Hiring an alum without any coaching experience and getting success is an exception, not a rule.

It's a romantic sentiment that OSU fans are in love with right now because they feel spurned by Underwood/Holder. Could it work? Yes. But it's more likely to blow up in everyone's face.
 

OSUMIKE17

Property of The Oklahoman and NewsOk.com
A/V Subscriber
#49
One thing that surprised me though was our ability this year on the offensive boards. We were a much better rebounding team than we've been in years to the best of my memory.
Unsurprisingly, we were also terrible in transition defense.

Crashing the boards is risk/reward. It's great if you get points but if not, it leads to fast breaks and easy scoring on the other end.
 
#50
Hiring Doug could also (and more likely) put the last nail in his coffin. Hiring an alum without any coaching experience and getting success is an exception, not a rule.

It's a romantic sentiment that OSU fans are in love with right now because they feel spurned by Underwood/Holder. Could it work? Yes. But it's more likely to blow up in everyone's face.
Not for me. Not a romantic sentiment. I think it's the smartest hire. Holder needs to be asked for resign anyway. Unless he hires Doug. If he hires Doug I'll be willing to give him one last chance. It's holder's last chance anyway. He's screwed up the basketball too much. this last one was absurd. If he wasn't friends with Boone he would have been asked to resign already.

As it is I'm glad Holder was our AD for a while to raise money and cuz of Boone. His financial capabilities seems to be really great overall. However, it's too much bottom line with him and he has zero people skills which pisses coaches off. He is too country bumpkin to be our A.D.
 

ramases2112

Territorial Marshal
#51
Hiring Doug could also (and more likely) put the last nail in his coffin. Hiring an alum without any coaching experience and getting success is an exception, not a rule.

It's a romantic sentiment that OSU fans are in love with right now because they feel spurned by Underwood/Holder. Could it work? Yes. But it's more likely to blow up in everyone's face.
Its basketball not football. How much damage could 2-3 years of Doug be to the program? There are only 13 spots to recruit which can be reversed in 2-3 years should Doug be fail. This isnt football where a bad coach could set you back a decade, its basketball where you can reverse failure with success quickly. Just look at this year with BU. Everyone thought he had turned around the horrific 8 years of Ford in one year.
 
#52
So we basically have some stories painting BU in a bad light and other stories painting MH in a bad light. Neither of which I've seen much proof of. Maybe the truth is that BU is a fraud and we dodged a bullet by him leaving. Maybe the truth is that Holder botched the entire process and we lost a good coach because of it. Or maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. I don't know.

What I do know is that there was a huge difference watching this team between last year and this year, it was night and day from a fundamentals standpoint anyway. I also know that energy and excitement were starting to come back to GIA. And we know for certain that Illinois liked him enough to offer him a 6 year deal worth $3 Million a year....doubtful they made that decision lightly. At the end of the day, a coach is worth what the market will pay, OSU has to play by those same rules as everybody else.

We may never know who to blame or the exact sting of events that unfolded to get to where we are now. We will know in a few years whether BU can coach or not though. And we can most certainly judge Holder on who he hires next. If it turns out to be a good one, few people will spend much time thinking about BU anymore. If not, well there's going to be a lot of people wondering why Holder didn't do more to keep him.
 
#53
Hiring Doug could also (and more likely) put the last nail in his coffin. Hiring an alum without any coaching experience and getting success is an exception, not a rule.

It's a romantic sentiment that OSU fans are in love with right now because they feel spurned by Underwood/Holder. Could it work? Yes. But it's more likely to blow up in everyone's face.
Amen! We need to drop the romance and get real. At CU, when Dan Hawkins was finally fired, the CU insiders demanded that alums be hired. They brought in John Embree and Eric Bienemy. These guys bled black and gold and had ASSISTANT COACHING EXPERIENCE. The result of two seasons 4-21. OSU can't afford that kind of mistake. The jump from assistant to head is enormous and the thought of Gottlieb who has never coached nor recruited anywhere is pretty scary.
 
#54
Amen! We need to drop the romance and get real. At CU, when Dan Hawkins was finally fired, the CU insiders demanded that alums be hired. They brought in John Embree and Eric Bienemy. These guys bled black and gold and had ASSISTANT COACHING EXPERIENCE. The result of two seasons 4-21. OSU can't afford that kind of mistake. The jump from assistant to head is enormous and the thought of Gottlieb who has never coached nor recruited anywhere is pretty scary.
This...this...a thousand times this. To expect that Gottlieb is going to drop in and produce "positive energy" and "spirit" assumes that he's going to win. If he doesn't, there won't be anything positive about the program. Fans will resume staying home, and people will bitch and complain about the program. Someone should ask a Texas fan how much positive energy that Shaka Smart brought the program this year when they ended up 11-22.
 
#55
Hiring Doug could also (and more likely) put the last nail in his coffin. Hiring an alum without any coaching experience and getting success is an exception, not a rule.

It's a romantic sentiment that OSU fans are in love with right now because they feel spurned by Underwood/Holder. Could it work? Yes. But it's more likely to blow up in everyone's face.
There are several examples of successful coaches with no prior coaching experience. It has been repeated many times in this debate (Fred Hoiberg, Steve Kerr, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson). We even have some non-basketball examples at OSU (Smith, Holder). So those are the exceptions you say, what is the rule? I'm assuming there's an extensive list of it not working out since this is the claim I keep seeing. I truly don't know?
 
Last edited:

Philranger

Territorial Marshal
#56
Not for me. Not a romantic sentiment. I think it's the smartest hire. Holder needs to be asked for resign anyway. Unless he hires Doug. If he hires Doug I'll be willing to give him one last chance. It's holder's last chance anyway. He's screwed up the basketball too much. this last one was absurd. If he wasn't friends with Boone he would have been asked to resign already.

As it is I'm glad Holder was our AD for a while to raise money and cuz of Boone. His financial capabilities seems to be really great overall. However, it's too much bottom line with him and he has zero people skills which pisses coaches off. He is too country bumpkin to be our A.D.
Given the general grammar and content of your posts, please forgive me if I now have a negative opinion of hiring DG if you think it's "the smartest hire."
 
#57
people on here need to realize that Holder just balked at paying a coach the league average. the same coach who went to Illinois for 2.7 mill/year. i'd be interested who they think we can get to come here, that is an already established coach, for less than 3 mil/year............... i'm all ears............
 

OSUMIKE17

Property of The Oklahoman and NewsOk.com
A/V Subscriber
#58
There are several examples of successful coaches with no prior coaching experience. It has been repeated many times in this debate (Fred Hoiberg, Steve Kerr, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson). We even have some non-basketball examples at OSU (Smith, Holder). So those are the exceptions you say, what is the rule? I'm assuming there's an extensive list of it not working out since this is the claim I keep seeing. I truly don't know?
Derek Fisher, Clyde Drexler, Chris Mullins (so far), Sidney Moncrief (former Sutton player), to name a few.

Nobody really remembers the failures.

And if it wasn't the exception, why hasn't Gottlieb been hired as a coach for the other programs he has interviewed for? UNLV? KSU?

Why aren't there more than 5-8 coaches that you can name that have been successful coaches without experience?
 

OSUMIKE17

Property of The Oklahoman and NewsOk.com
A/V Subscriber
#59
people on here need to realize that Holder just balked at paying a coach the league average. the same coach who went to Illinois for 2.7 mill/year. i'd be interested who they think we can get to come here, that is an already established coach, for less than 3 mil/year............... i'm all ears............
No. He said "let's talk about it" instead of "Sure, I'll give you $3M, no questions asked even though the only two coaches in this league making that money have been to the Final Four."

There are a lot of coaches out there that haven't yet hit that mark either.
 

OSUMIKE17

Property of The Oklahoman and NewsOk.com
A/V Subscriber
#60
Not for me. Not a romantic sentiment. I think it's the smartest hire. Holder needs to be asked for resign anyway. Unless he hires Doug. If he hires Doug I'll be willing to give him one last chance. It's holder's last chance anyway. He's screwed up the basketball too much. this last one was absurd. If he wasn't friends with Boone he would have been asked to resign already.

As it is I'm glad Holder was our AD for a while to raise money and cuz of Boone. His financial capabilities seems to be really great overall. However, it's too much bottom line with him and he has zero people skills which pisses coaches off. He is too country bumpkin to be our A.D.
Everything about the second paragraph is exactly why nobody should pay attention to the first paragraph.