seems to me oSu is loaded for fall ...

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OctaviusRexLTH

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#41
Dont just assume breaking in a new qb at OU means anything. The last 3 times that happened, that qb was a heisman finalist. And the defense is vastly improving.

Osu will have a fine year on offense, they might have the most proven trio in the big 12, but that wouldnt be the first time that happened either. I think it'll come down to the defense letting the team down resulting in a couple of unnecessary losses. Also, with the practice limitations that has been imposed since spring ball, will the OC have enough time to really implement his offense? There's a lot of nuance to the relationship of a coordinator and his qb, new playbook, tweaks to the existing one, putting more on the qb. Spring is usually the time they use for those things. I Imagine it must be difficult for any team with a new OC or DC having missed spring drills
That’s a fair take.

Personally, I’m feeling better about the defense than I have in awhile. Antwine, Ford, Rodriguez, Harvell-Peel, Ogbongbemiga, Tre Sterling, Rodarius Williams are all proven noteworthy defenders. The pickup of Christian Holmes and Collin clay (both proven good SEC caliber defensive players) adds to my confidence level and provides good added depth.

but I was pretty darn confident in 2017 as well. We shall see, I’d say any less than a CCG appearance will be a disappointment. An appearance wouldn’t surprise me, but neither would agonizingly dropping a few games the Pokes shouldn’t
 
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#42
Dont just assume breaking in a new qb at OU means anything. The last 3 times that happened, that qb was a heisman finalist. And the defense is vastly improving.

Osu will have a fine year on offense, they might have the most proven trio in the big 12, but that wouldnt be the first time that happened either. I think it'll come down to the defense letting the team down resulting in a couple of unnecessary losses. Also, with the practice limitations that has been imposed since spring ball, will the OC have enough time to really implement his offense? There's a lot of nuance to the relationship of a coordinator and his qb, new playbook, tweaks to the existing one, putting more on the qb. Spring is usually the time they use for those things. I Imagine it must be difficult for any team with a new OC or DC having missed spring drills
"breaking in a new QB" when the QB played a year at Tech, another was a Sr and the last was a SR . . . alot different than a RSFresh
 
Apr 12, 2020
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#43
with great skill at running back and receiver plus a solid young quarterback. am i missing something or are the pokes a likely favorite to win the b12? i always find texas overrated and wonder about ou coming with a new quarterback after what i saw from them last year in manhattan and the cfp.
Dont just assume breaking in a new qb at OU means anything. The last 3 times that happened, that qb was a heisman finalist. And the defense is vastly improving.

Osu will have a fine year on offense, they might have the most proven trio in the big 12, but that wouldnt be the first time that happened either. I think it'll come down to the defense letting the team down resulting in a couple of unnecessary losses. Also, with the practice limitations that has been imposed since spring ball, will the OC have enough time to really implement his offense? There's a lot of nuance to the relationship of a coordinator and his qb, new playbook, tweaks to the existing one, putting more on the qb. Spring is usually the time they use for those things. I Imagine it must be difficult for any team with a new OC or DC having missed spring drills
The OC isn’t implementing anything, that’s the beauty of continuity. It may prevent the new QB coach from working on physical&mechanical improvements with Sanders, but schematically this offense is staying the same.

Idk, obviously you gotta respect the track record of OU QBs. But I think the thing a lot of people do that’s wrong is assume the talent level of all 5 stars is the same. Kyler imo is in the convo with Fields as probably the most gifted QB prospect to come out in the last 10 years... even as a 5 star holding Rattler to that standard is a tall task. And Baker and Hurts has drastically more starts.

Also, Baker wasn’t technically a finalist in 15, you have to get an invite to NY to be a finalist and Baker was the first person to miss the cut.


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Feb 24, 2020
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#44
Even though OU is breaking in a new QB, they return the best OL in the league. All starters return, and their RB is back as well. A dominate run game should take some pressure off Rattler.

What our defense lacks is a proven pass rusher(s), and a proven CB. Don’t get me wrong, I understand Rodarius has started 3 years and counting, but he constantly gets beat down the field. Hopefully that gets corrected this year.
 

OSUMIKE17

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#45
Even though OU is breaking in a new QB, they return the best OL in the league. All starters return, and their RB is back as well. A dominate run game should take some pressure off Rattler.

What our defense lacks is a proven pass rusher(s), and a proven CB. Don’t get me wrong, I understand Rodarius has started 3 years and counting, but he constantly gets beat down the field. Hopefully that gets corrected this year.
The pass rush in this scheme of defense is one that doesn’t always point to one elite guy. Rather than looking for an “elite pass rusher,” it’d be better to look at total team QB pressures, sacks, tackles for loss, etc.

For example, last season when we started to hit our stride on defense, really getting comfortable with the new scheme down the stretch in November, we were second in the Big12 in sacks that month (4 games). We averaged 3.25 sacks per game. Baylor was 1st with 3.50 sacks per game.

Tackles for Loss, same story in November. 2nd in the Big12 behind Baylor (6.5 per game vs 7 per game).

OSU led the league in QB Hurries in November at 4 per game.
 
Feb 24, 2020
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#46
The pass rush in this scheme of defense is one that doesn’t always point to one elite guy. Rather than looking for an “elite pass rusher,” it’d be better to look at total team QB pressures, sacks, tackles for loss, etc.

For example, last season when we started to hit our stride on defense, really getting comfortable with the new scheme down the stretch in November, we were second in the Big12 in sacks that month (4 games). We averaged 3.25 sacks per game. Baylor was 1st with 3.50 sacks per game.

Tackles for Loss, same story in November. 2nd in the Big12 behind Baylor (6.5 per game vs 7 per game).

OSU led the league in QB Hurries in November at 4 per game.
IMO regardless of scheme, you want DL (As a whole) that can wreck havoc on offense. Most teams that win championships have that whether it’s HS or the pro ranks. How teams have won championships playing coverage? Me personally, having that pass rusher rather it’s coming from the inside or outside is important. I’m hopeful that changes this season l.

Yes we hit our stride in November, but that’s against TCU, Kansas, WVU, and OU. 3 of the 4 had losing records....those stats aren’t that impressive IMO against sub .500 squads outside of OU.
 

OSUMIKE17

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#47
IMO regardless of scheme, you want DL (As a whole) that can wreck havoc on offense. Most teams that win championships have that whether it’s HS or the pro ranks. How teams have won championships playing coverage? Me personally, having that pass rusher rather it’s coming from the inside or outside is important. I’m hopeful that changes this season l.

Yes we hit our stride in November, but that’s against TCU, Kansas, WVU, and OU. 3 of the 4 had losing records....those stats aren’t that impressive IMO against sub .500 squads outside of OU.
Ok, if you’d like I can back up the dates a bit. Against Baylor and Iowa State (the two games prior in late October) we combined for 6 sacks, 15 tackles for loss, and 5 QB Hurries. I believe both those teams had winning records, correct?

You’re hung up on having one guy wreak havoc when it really doesn’t matter who does so as long as the total results are there in the end.

Also, a ton of teams have won big with their back seven...at all levels. Those guys are especially important now in a time of football where the ball is often thrown before a pass rush can even get home.
 

PontiacPoke717

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#48
Bullrush is great to have and in that regard, our starters are probably top 3 in the Big12, but I'm worried about the drop off after that. Pass rush is also about putting players in position to make plays which Knowles scheme is awesome at... double that with the talent on the outside - they'll be primed to make plenty of plays.
 
Feb 24, 2020
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#49
Ok, if you’d like I can back up the dates a bit. Against Baylor and Iowa State (the two games prior in late October) we combined for 6 sacks, 15 tackles for loss, and 5 QB Hurries. I believe both those teams had winning records, correct?

You’re hung up on having one guy wreak havoc when it really doesn’t matter who does so as long as the total results are there in the end.

Also, a ton of teams have won big with their back seven...at all levels. Those guys are especially important now in a time of football where the ball is often thrown before a pass rush can even get home.
I clarified....I said DL as a whole. It worked well for Baylor and their 3 man front getting them there. OUs DL was more disruptive, which made a huge difference. Baylor also have a guy in James lynch, who was their elite pass rusher. Point is I would rather have a disruptive front along with a standout rusher. That’s just me personally. I don’t think we’re wining a championship unless that improves. In that Baylor game...we had 4 sacks in the first half and and in the 2nd half none. Our secondary got shredded by Charlie brewer, and that happened to be his biggest passing game of the season.

Im not dismissing the back 7. In a pass happy, it’s imperative. You win championships in the trenches, not your back 7...again my opinion. Could you possible win with an elite secondary....sure but we don’t have an elite secondary IMO to carries us to a championship and we don’t have any corners that can hold their own consistently. Christian Holmes is a veteran corner but far from a lockdown type guy. Maybe Bernard at CB helps, he struggled in coverage at safety so I don’t know if his skill set translates to CB. This a group that struggled in coverage last year.
 
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OSUMIKE17

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#50
I clarified....I said DL as a whole. It worked well for Baylor and their 3 man front getting them there. OUs DL was more disruptive, which made a huge difference.
In the one championship game against a very banged up Charlie Brewer they were disruptive. In their regular conference games, they totaled 20 sacks which was one less than what OSU totaled. I really don’t think you’re giving OSU a fair shake here at all.
Point is I would rather have a disruptive front along with a standout rusher. That’s just me personally. I don’t think we’re wining a championship unless that improves.
I just gave you stats that show we had a defense that disrupted the passer. It’s just not in the old school way you want it to be so therefore you’re ignoring its effectiveness. Nevermind the fact that the entire line is back along with potential ally adding Collin Clay if eligible.
In that Baylor game...we had 4 sacks in the first half and and in the 2nd half none. Our secondary got shredded by Charlie brewer, and that happened to be his biggest passing game of the season.
At first you said we weren’t disruptive at all against teams with winning records and now you’re switching that up to it being in the correct quarters? Okay.

Our secondary did get shredded on a few massive plays and that ended up being the dagger. But that wasn’t the discussion was about.
Im not dismissing the back 7. In a pass happy, it’s imperative. You win championships in the trenches, not your back 7...again my opinion. Could you possible win with an elite secondary....sure but we don’t have an elite secondary IMO to carries us to a championship and we don’t have any corners that can hold their own consistently. Christian Holmes is a veteran corner but far from a lockdown type guy. Maybe Bernard at CB helps, he struggled in coverage at safety so I don’t know if his skill set translates to CB. This a group that struggled in coverage last year.
Guy, I just don’t know what to tell you here. The safety unit is the second best in the league behind TCU. Williams is a good corner that can end up being very good his senior season. The other corner spot is up for grabs but Holmes will at least hold his own if he wins that starting spot.

You are seriously downplaying the entire defense despite them making massive strides during the second half of a season with a new scheme.
 
Feb 24, 2020
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#51
In the one championship game against a very banged up Charlie Brewer they were disruptive. In their regular conference games, they totaled 20 sacks which was one less than what OSU totaled. I really don’t think you’re giving OSU a fair shake here at all.

I just gave you stats that show we had a defense that disrupted the passer. It’s just not in the old school way you want it to be so therefore you’re ignoring its effectiveness. Nevermind the fact that the entire line is back along with potential ally adding Collin Clay if eligible.

I'm just talking DL only. If you want to talk conference fine, thats you're choice. In the season, they finished with 36 sacks and 25.5 came from the DL. We finished with 28, and only 14.5 came from the DL. This has nothing to do with being old school. Having a disruptive DL wins championship. Just ask Clemson or Alabama. Not like I was bagging our guys, I just simply said we don't have a proven pass rusher. Doesn't mean someone won't emerge this season. We got sacks b/c we blitz, especially in the 2nd half of the season.

At first you said we weren’t disruptive at all against teams with winning records and now you’re switching that up to it being in the correct quarters? Okay.

Never switched, we was disruptive at times, but consistently??? No we weren't and I stand by that. I just want to see more...I don't think that's a crime.

Our secondary did get shredded on a few massive plays and that ended up being the dagger. But that wasn’t the discussion was about.

No it wasn't but you welcomed that point when you mention teams can win with their back 7. IMO although its good, I don't think it's elite. Safety play is one of the top in the league...I don't think it's top in the nation. KHP INT's came off tip balls and Max Duggan over shooting his WR's by 20+ yards. We're 8th in the league in pass defense..hopefully that changes.

Guy, I just don’t know what to tell you here. The safety unit is the second best in the league behind TCU. Williams is a good corner that can end up being very good his senior season. The other corner spot is up for grabs but Holmes will at least hold his own if he wins that starting spot.

Like the safety unit...Agree TCU has the best tandem in the league. You'll never sell me on Willams is a good corner. That's quite funny to be honest. He's been a 3 year starter b/c he's better than what we have on the roster, which isn't saying much and why we're always getting grad transfers at that position. Could he improve...possibly, but after 3 years, you are what you are at this point. In terms of Holmes, solid player that was in out of the lineup due to inconsistency.

You are seriously downplaying the entire defense despite them making massive strides during the second half of a season with a new scheme.
Not downplaying the entire defense...I'm just not hyping them up. Do they have potential....yes no question. At this point this defense has the "potential" to be good, but it is a potential. Is this a proven defense to the point they're going to dominate the opposition...Not even close IMO. I'm cautiously optimistic. Did they made strides, sure but I wouldn't call them massive...that's just me personally. Respect your views and opinions though.
 
Apr 12, 2020
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#52
Not downplaying the entire defense...I'm just not hyping them up. Do they have potential....yes no question. At this point this defense has the "potential" to be good, but it is a potential. Is this a proven defense to the point they're going to dominate the opposition...Not even close IMO. I'm cautiously optimistic. Did they made strides, sure but I wouldn't call them massive...that's just me personally. Respect your views and opinions though.
I think the larger problem with your point is that people respect a unit when it’s dominant. We’re not going to have a dominant defense, it’s just not in the cards. But if we have the 2nd or 3rd best defense in the conference, which I think is borderline likely based on personnel combined with the credibility of a Mike Gundy offense and all the returning weapons, that should be enough to propel us to making the Conference championship game.

We averaged .381 opponents points per drive good for 57th in the country. It was .382 over the last 3 games so it’s nor really a tale of 2 halves where there was some massive statistical improvement throughout the season. That was a massive change from .430 in 2018 which in 2019 would of been good for 85th place.

As far as the scheme stuff goes. I take your point that we’re going to be weak at corner, AJ Green was under appreciated and I’m pretty nervous about Rodarius as our CB1. So I totally agree that the way to protect our corners is working to improve our passrushing. Prioritizing pass rushing should be a defense defining trait for us next year. It’s just I think there’s a way to that in the 33 front as much as the 42 front.


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Feb 24, 2020
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#53
I think the larger problem with your point is that people respect a unit when it’s dominant. We’re not going to have a dominant defense, it’s just not in the cards. But if we have the 2nd or 3rd best defense in the conference, which I think is borderline likely based on personnel combined with the credibility of a Mike Gundy offense and all the returning weapons, that should be enough to propel us to making the Conference championship game.

We averaged .381 opponents points per drive good for 57th in the country. It was .382 over the last 3 games so it’s nor really a tale of 2 halves where there was some massive statistical improvement throughout the season. That was a massive change from .430 in 2018 which in 2019 would of been good for 85th place.

As far as the scheme stuff goes. I take your point that we’re going to be weak at corner, AJ Green was under appreciated and I’m pretty nervous about Rodarius as our CB1. So I totally agree that the way to protect our corners is working to improve our passrushing. Prioritizing pass rushing should be a defense defining trait for us next year. It’s just I think there’s a way to that in the 33 front as much as the 42 front.


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I agree we won't have a dominant defense... we don't have the horses to be dominant. Maybe some day....what I want is consistency. Defense showed flashes, but IMO wasn't consistent. In terms of schemes, doesn't matter to me, as long as the front gets pressure. We're not going to be strong at CB...and quite honestly its by our weakest position on the entire team. We don't have a number 1 corner on campus or coming in. No one will ever sell me that Rodarius is a quality CB. Then again, all the quality WR's in the league left for the NFL so just maybe....we catch a break. Having guys getting pressure is important to me b/c it helps out the secondary. If we're relying on the secondary to lead us to a championship...the chances of getting to Arlington is slim IMO.
 
Apr 12, 2020
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#54
I agree we won't have a dominant defense... we don't have the horses to be dominant. Maybe some day....what I want is consistency. Defense showed flashes, but IMO wasn't consistent.
That’s the other posters problem with what your saying though, the defense was statistically consistent. It was top 60 and the Opponents Points per drive was a flat line, extremely constant game to game to as evidenced by the the .382 in the last 3 games with a .381 annual average. The defense WAS consistent, it just still wasn’t as good as you wanted it to be.


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OctaviusRexLTH

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#55
That’s the other posters problem with what your saying though, the defense was statistically consistent. It was top 60 and the Opponents Points per drive was a flat line, extremely constant game to game to as evidenced by the the .382 in the last 3 games with a .381 annual average. The defense WAS consistent, it just still wasn’t as good as you wanted it to be.


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Wish we had last year's defense in 2017
 
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#56
Points per drive is skewed when the offense scores 40+/game most games. Stats are skewed. Like mentioned bottom line is DL talent. Clemson Bama Ohio State are always in the playoffs due to multiple NFL DLmen. OU gets there with an elite offense and look what happens. We are on par with ou’s offense this year. One thing I note is that our DL has a lot of depth which I don’t feel we’ve ever had in the Gundy era. Having depth we can show more looks and blitzes as we can sub guys and not have a 1st string/4th string type drop off
 
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#57
Points per drive is skewed when the offense scores 40+/game most games. Stats are skewed. Like mentioned bottom line is DL talent. Clemson Bama Ohio State are always in the playoffs due to multiple NFL DLmen. OU gets there with an elite offense and look what happens. We are on par with ou’s offense this year. One thing I note is that our DL has a lot of depth which I don’t feel we’ve ever had in the Gundy era. Having depth we can show more looks and blitzes as we can sub guys and not have a 1st string/4th string type drop off
No. If anything that’s supposed to be exactly what points per drive takes into account. It’s a stat that actually looks at more possessions which usually happens when you’re offense is scoring 40, instead of all the counting stats that benefit the snail pace Big 10 games.

Not that that matter because last year we weren’t scoring 40 every game, in fact in our conference slate, the winning team (not just us) only hit 40 twice.

You’re still thinking about the units wrong. It’s not about Dline talent. It’s about pass defense and rush defense. Which one are you more concerned about?


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PontiacPoke717

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#58
The success of our season will come down to about 3 things..

Staying healthy on the DL
Chuba staying healthy
Spencers progression - I'd say this is probably most important - you don't win this league without elite QB play.
 

OSUMIKE17

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#59
Not downplaying the entire defense...I'm just not hyping them up. Do they have potential....yes no question. At this point this defense has the "potential" to be good, but it is a potential. Is this a proven defense to the point they're going to dominate the opposition...Not even close IMO. I'm cautiously optimistic. Did they made strides, sure but I wouldn't call them massive...that's just me personally. Respect your views and opinions though.
I think there is a massive area between “potential to be good” and “dominant.”

Are they going to be “dominant?” Probably not. And especially not by the old school standards you seem to be judging by. But that doesn’t mean they won’t be “good to very good.”

I expect them to be better than last season in which the defense finished 58th nationally in the SP+ ranking.
 
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#60
Holding 0u to 31 should have been a W for us. Offense laid a huge turd and we couldn't get any of the little things to go our way when we needed too.
Don’t know what year that was but we held them to 34 last year, and likely should’ve been worse. Offense was never going to win that game with Dru Brown. He’s a great teammate, but lack the talent to compete at the P5 level IMO.
That’s not what the Canadians say!


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