Bush Abolishes Fifth Amendment

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Chris H.

administrator emeritus
Jul 1, 2004
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chris.hasenpflug.net
#41
Question - Are executive orders subject to Judicial Review? If so, why haven't these orders that infringe on our civil rights being challenged in the court system? If not, why aren't they?
As I stated on page 1, judicial review which we all learned about from Schoolhouse Rock will not happen until the law is actually applied. Plenty of laws/orders are out that would be ruled unconstitutional should they ever actually be applied. They just aren't applied, which is a real waste of time by our legislators in writing them if you ask me.
 

Aaron C.

AKA Shortbus
Jul 20, 2005
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#42
I am in agreement with you Chris, and I know this sounds outlandish, but what if you wander into your apartment tonight alone after drinking a few too many and there are government agents waiting there for you and they take your phone away and quietly take you down to their car and wisk you away to wherever, planet earth because they determined that you did something that was detrimental to the progress in Iraq.

Now, of course this is sooo unlikely to happen it's almost not worth discussing, but bear with me.

You didn't get to call a lawyer. You didn't get to call your mom or your girlfriend.

What you did is up for debate as is whether or not it violated any policy, but now here you sit, somewhere, wherever, defenseless. Legally, this could happen.

Who's going to challenge it? Who knows about it?

My point is, no matter how far fetched, and no matter how it would be able to come under review after the fact, the constitution says it shouldn't be able to happen under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

Now, while far fetched, it can happen.

I know I sound like some kind of conspiracy theoryist but I shouldn't have to. And supporting the principles of the constitution shouldn't make me be one, but sadly, it does.

I just think it's one teeny tiny (supposedly teeny tiny) detail that I believe is worth being anal about.
 

okstateguy987

Teamo Supremo
May 7, 2007
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#43
okstateguy987, I'd sit here and continue debating with you like I have previously, but it's a waste of energy to discuss anything with someone who is so obsessed with someone that they will defend anything that they do. I haven't seen you criticize anything Bush has done. Criticizing Bush for something you don't agree with doesn't make you a Bush hater. No two people are alike so I highly doubt you have a completely identical set of beliefs and opinions. Either you're going to continually defend your pride and this president because you're too embarrassed to admit you were wrong at something or you're a zealot and have serious problems and will continue adopting and replacing every opinion Bush has as your own.

Your mentality is that it's OK for us to live in a police state, because hey, if you're not breaking the law you have nothing to worry about right? Whatever. You can be THAT loyal to a politician who probably doesn't give a **** about you other than your vote if you want to but I will never support anyone that strongly. I will sit here and say there are quite a few things of Ron Paul that I disagree with. That wasn't so hard was it? It's obvious your head is so far up Bush's *** that you're probably the reason he's having a colonoscopy this weekend.
We do not live in a police state.

Again, you haven't aswered my question: What rights have you lost or do you miss having? Can you name a single one?

There are plenty of things that Bush does that I don't agree with. However, I didn't vote for him, actually I didn't vote for anyone because I wasn't of age yet. I probably wouldn't have voted for him either, but I also wouldn't have voted for Gore or Kerry because I didn't think those two were fit to govern our nation. So I'm not going to waste my breath bashing Bush for things I don't agree with. Bashing people and constantly pointing out all of their flaws is about as immature way to disagree with someone as there is. I'll simply vote for someone else next time.

I defend Bush sometimes because I get sick of hearing all the slanted media bias and all the Bush-haters constantly barraging him with verbal abuse and making false accusations against him, and then having the gall to call our President a idiot and a fool. It makes me sick to think that people acutally think this way. It makes me sick to think that people don't appreciate what the government does for us, and then proceed to ask the government to do everything for them. Bush is not the only person in our government. He should not be the one to absorb all of the blame when something doesn't go the way we want it too. When you blame one person in the government for EVERYTHING you are essentially treating him like a king. That's not the kind of government we have, and people need to recognize that.

I am hardly obssessed with Bush. You might think differently because all you know about me is what I post on this board. However I have also come to the conclusion that you are obssessed with Bush, and bashing his administration as much as you can.

Bush and I disagree on many different issues. Sometimes I wish he would pursue a certain issue more vigorously, or let off something else a little more. But I don't constantly bash him and point out every flaw or percieved flaw of his. Why, you may ask? Because I recognize that he is not superhuman, and that if I or anyone else were in his position, we would not be able to satisfy everyone all of the time. But I truly believe Bush does what is best for the nation, regardless of how the media protrays him. I don't have superhero expectations for him. I expect him to do what is right for the nation, no less, no more. Presently, I expect him to do his best to defend this nation.

People need to remember that a President is in office for 4 years, 8 max. There is no way a President of this nation can become dictator unless the people want him to. Bush has a year left in office, do you people really expect to lose all of your rights and for Bush to become the next Hugo Chavez in that time frame?

In all of the highest wisdom, I say this.....Get a life.
 

Pokefan

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Aug 3, 2004
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#44
As I stated on page 1, judicial review which we all learned about from Schoolhouse Rock will not happen until the law is actually applied. Plenty of laws/orders are out that would be ruled unconstitutional should they ever actually be applied. They just aren't applied, which is a real waste of time by our legislators in writing them if you ask me.
I am not sure about Executive orders, but I do know that an individual or a group can go to court and seek an injunction preventing a law from being applied or enacted. Before it is put in place or even afterwards.
Maybe Legellegel can tell us if this is true also of Executive orders.

987 you would have been the perfect German citizen in Nazi Germany. never questioning the Government as well it is the jews an not me. it is the Catholics and not me, It is the Gypsies and not me. It does not affect me so it is not relevant. Then ooopss when it does affect you, tooo late. No one is left to fight for you.

You are so adamant about our troops fighting for Truth justice and the American way. Sorry could not resist the Superman cliche' But they are fighting to spread the American system of Government to Iraq. If not to protect OUR FREEDOMS, then what the hell is the justification for them being there? i thought that was the last excuse presented.

Now when it is blatantly subverted here, you are willing to roll over and give it up to the Administration. How sad. As mentioned in an earlier thread,is there anything Bush can do that would make you say "thats wrong!"? somehow I doubt it.
 

okstateguy987

Teamo Supremo
May 7, 2007
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#45
I am not sure about Executive orders, but I do know that an individual or a group can go to court and seek an injunction preventing a law from being applied or enacted. Before it is put in place or even afterwards.
Maybe Legellegel can tell us if this is true also of Executive orders.

987 you would have been the perfect German citizen in Nazi Germany. never questioning the Government as well it is the jews an not me. it is the Catholics and not me, It is the Gypsies and not me. It does not affect me so it is not relevant. Then ooopss when it does affect you, tooo late. No one is left to fight for you.

You are so adamant about our troops fighting for Truth justice and the American way. Sorry could not resist the Superman cliche' But they are fighting to spread the American system of Government to Iraq. If not to protect OUR FREEDOMS, then what the hell is the justification for them being there? i thought that was the last excuse presented.

Now when it is blatantly subverted here, you are willing to roll over and give it up to the Administration. How sad. As mentioned in an earlier thread,is there anything Bush can do that would make you say "thats wrong!"? somehow I doubt it.
you didn't read my whole post did you? shame on you.

And I like how you accuse me of categorizing people, and then proceed to call me a perfect Nazi citizen. wow.

I also like how you are relating our government and society to Nazi Germany. wow.

You haven't yet realized who the real Nazi's of today are. The one's who run a theocracy. The one's who target innocent civilians. The ones who seek nuclear capabilites in direct opposition the the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. The one's who run dictatorships in Venezuala and N. Korea. The one's who speek of wiping an entire race off the earth. The one's who actually debate whether or not the Holocaust really happened. The one's who hope to one day spread their corrupt theocracy over the entire world, and who are willing to kill thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians to do it.

And you actually think that America is what's wrong with the world.

Like I've stated before: Learn to recognize where the true evil lies.
 
Apr 7, 2005
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#46
There are a million laws on the books that never have been enforced like flirtation between men and women on the streets of Little Rock may result in a 30-day jail term. In Oklahoma, people who make ugly faces at dogs may be fined and/or jailed or it is illegal to wear your boots to bed. This "law" while not crazy like the previous examples, may be one that is a just-in-case thing.
While I dont support everything Bush does, I do believe he is doing what he thinks is best for the safety of the country. If the government was as bad as some people say than I would expect more people to be jailed for critisizing the gov't. While I may not be as smart as some of you in the "political manner", I would hate to live life thinking that the gov't is always conspiring (sp) against us.
 

kaje

Let's Go Heat!
Nov 19, 2005
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#48
We do not live in a police state.

Again, you haven't aswered my question: What rights have you lost or do you miss having? Can you name a single one?

There are plenty of things that Bush does that I don't agree with. However, I didn't vote for him, actually I didn't vote for anyone because I wasn't of age yet. I probably wouldn't have voted for him either, but I also wouldn't have voted for Gore or Kerry because I didn't think those two were fit to govern our nation. So I'm not going to waste my breath bashing Bush for things I don't agree with. Bashing people and constantly pointing out all of their flaws is about as immature way to disagree with someone as there is. I'll simply vote for someone else next time.

I defend Bush sometimes because I get sick of hearing all the slanted media bias and all the Bush-haters constantly barraging him with verbal abuse and making false accusations against him, and then having the gall to call our President a idiot and a fool. It makes me sick to think that people acutally think this way. It makes me sick to think that people don't appreciate what the government does for us, and then proceed to ask the government to do everything for them. Bush is not the only person in our government. He should not be the one to absorb all of the blame when something doesn't go the way we want it too. When you blame one person in the government for EVERYTHING you are essentially treating him like a king. That's not the kind of government we have, and people need to recognize that.

I am hardly obssessed with Bush. You might think differently because all you know about me is what I post on this board. However I have also come to the conclusion that you are obssessed with Bush, and bashing his administration as much as you can.

Bush and I disagree on many different issues. Sometimes I wish he would pursue a certain issue more vigorously, or let off something else a little more. But I don't constantly bash him and point out every flaw or percieved flaw of his. Why, you may ask? Because I recognize that he is not superhuman, and that if I or anyone else were in his position, we would not be able to satisfy everyone all of the time. But I truly believe Bush does what is best for the nation, regardless of how the media protrays him. I don't have superhero expectations for him. I expect him to do what is right for the nation, no less, no more. Presently, I expect him to do his best to defend this nation.

People need to remember that a President is in office for 4 years, 8 max. There is no way a President of this nation can become dictator unless the people want him to. Bush has a year left in office, do you people really expect to lose all of your rights and for Bush to become the next Hugo Chavez in that time frame?

In all of the highest wisdom, I say this.....Get a life.
I didn't say we were living in a police state, but little by little the more Bush wipes his *** with the Constitution, it only gets closer to that and you don't care. I'm glad you think sitting on your hands until the next presidential election is a good way of preventing things you don't believe in from happening. You know what I call that? Worthless. I did vote for Bush and boy do I and a lot of other people wish we could take that back. Why do people blame this on Bush? Could it be because it's HIS executive order? Who the hell do you expect people to blame it on? Just because Bush thinks something is good for the nation doesn't mean it's good for the nation. No one is expecting him to be superhuman, but not every president gets the pathetic approval ratings that he's getting (that speak for themselves) either. He's getting them for some reason. Just too bad some of you can't see why. 30% of the nation didn't vote Bush into office.
 

Pokefan

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#49
That really didn't take long at all :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
But I did not compare him to Hitler or a Nazi... I said he would have been a good citizen of Nazi Germany. Not all Germans were Nazi party members. Way to many stood by complacently as the Nazi's did their work. Perfect example is when one says, well it does not bother me so I don't care. Thus the comparison.
 

Aaron C.

AKA Shortbus
Jul 20, 2005
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#50
There are a million laws on the books that never have been enforced like flirtation between men and women on the streets of Little Rock may result in a 30-day jail term. In Oklahoma, people who make ugly faces at dogs may be fined and/or jailed or it is illegal to wear your boots to bed. This "law" while not crazy like the previous examples, may be one that is a just-in-case thing.
While I dont support everything Bush does, I do believe he is doing what he thinks is best for the safety of the country. If the government was as bad as some people say than I would expect more people to be jailed for critisizing the gov't. While I may not be as smart as some of you in the "political manner", I would hate to live life thinking that the gov't is always conspiring (sp) against us.
Sutton1,

That argument doesn't work. Those are city ordinances or state laws, not FEDERAL laws.
 

snuffy

Free Harambe!
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Feb 28, 2007
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#51
Question - Are executive orders subject to Judicial Review? If so, why haven't these orders that infringe on our civil rights being challenged in the court system? If not, why aren't they?
They can only be reviewed by the aggrieved party. Just like the warrant-less wire tap case that was drop in federal court a couple of weeks ago. It was dropped because the parties taking the government to court were not affected. It can not challenged until it is put into use.
 

SLVRBK

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#53
Have any of you bothered to read the Executive Orders that this particular one expands? I thought it was pretty clear who they are after.
 

kaje

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#54
Oh, and as far as the whole "as long as you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" argument. Criminals have rights too. Just because the government wants to make it easier to catch criminals, it does not make it right to disregard our Constitution without congressional amendments in order to do so.
 

okstateguy987

Teamo Supremo
May 7, 2007
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#55
But I did not compare him to Hitler or a Nazi... I said he would have been a good citizen of Nazi Germany. Not all Germans were Nazi party members. Way to many stood by complacently as the Nazi's did their work. Perfect example is when one says, well it does not bother me so I don't care. Thus the comparison.
Nazi Germany cannot even begin to be compared to America today. Someone needs a history lesson.

The Germans were deprived and starved for nationalistic pride. They were going to listen to anyone who promised them the world.

Obviously there is a difference in viewpoint when it comes to our nation. You guys think it's going down the hell-hole for whatever reason, and fear you are losing all of your rights and that the government is turning into a dictatorship. I, on the other hand, am complacent because I have not seen my standard of living change for my entire life. I have not witnessed a single of my rights taken away, nor am I fearful that within the next year Bush will become a full-flegded dictator. I have no reason to believe that the government threatens my way of life, but I do have reason to believe that the people they are fighting do.

IMO, you are all paranoid about the government. Get a life, it really isn't that bad here in the great US.
 

okstateguy987

Teamo Supremo
May 7, 2007
12,885
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#56
Have any of you bothered to read the Executive Orders that this particular one expands? I thought it was pretty clear who they are after.
Thank you, you are a reasonable person. These people bashing Bush are simply trying to spread fear and paranoia that they will become subject to some sort of covered-up atrocity committed by the government, when they clearly have no evidence to suggest it.
 

kaje

Let's Go Heat!
Nov 19, 2005
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#57
Nazi Germany cannot even begin to be compared to America today. Someone needs a history lesson.

The Germans were deprived and starved for nationalistic pride. They were going to listen to anyone who promised them the world.

Obviously there is a difference in viewpoint when it comes to our nation. You guys think it's going down the hell-hole for whatever reason, and fear you are losing all of your rights and that the government is turning into a dictatorship. I, on the other hand, am complacent because I have not seen my standard of living change for my entire life. I have not witnessed a single of my rights taken away, nor am I fearful that within the next year Bush will become a full-flegded dictator. I have no reason to believe that the government threatens my way of life, but I do have reason to believe that the people they are fighting do.

IMO, you are all paranoid about the government. Get a life, it really isn't that bad here in the great US.
Again, YOU haven't. The US doesn't revolve around you. Get a life? I can see why you weren't of age to vote for Bush. You sound like a snot nosed kid. You're so hip. You told people to get a life. People are taking the politics of their country that they love seriously. What losers! :rolleyes: You're the one in here defending all of this stuff. You're taking part in the discussion just as much as anyone else, so why don't you follow your own advise before giving it to anyone else?
 

OSU Sig

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#59
I am in agreement with you Chris, and I know this sounds outlandish, but what if you wander into your apartment tonight alone after drinking a few too many and there are government agents waiting there for you and they take your phone away and quietly take you down to their car and wisk you away to wherever, planet earth because they determined that you did something that was detrimental to the progress in Iraq.

Now, of course this is sooo unlikely to happen it's almost not worth discussing, but bear with me.

You didn't get to call a lawyer. You didn't get to call your mom or your girlfriend.

What you did is up for debate as is whether or not it violated any policy, but now here you sit, somewhere, wherever, defenseless. Legally, this could happen.

Who's going to challenge it? Who knows about it?

My point is, no matter how far fetched, and no matter how it would be able to come under review after the fact, the constitution says it shouldn't be able to happen under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE.

Now, while far fetched, it can happen.

I know I sound like some kind of conspiracy theoryist but I shouldn't have to. And supporting the principles of the constitution shouldn't make me be one, but sadly, it does.

I just think it's one teeny tiny (supposedly teeny tiny) detail that I believe is worth being anal about.
Shhh...Be careful, they are watching you.
 

Aaron C.

AKA Shortbus
Jul 20, 2005
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www.ultimatenurse.com
#60
if you say so, who am I to argue with the all-knowing AC:rolleyes:

Go ahead and live your paranoid life, I choose to live a different one
I'm not all knowing and I never said I was.

You are the one who refuses to be objective and consider the repercussions or refuse to believe that there even could be any.

I'm not paranoid.

I HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

I'm a law abiding citizen. I pay my taxes. I give to charity. I contribute to society in a positive manner.

That is not the issue.

I'll say it one last time. It's about the constitution and it's protections and the endangerment of them. On one hand you have people like me who believe nothing is worth destroying those protections. On the other hand we have people like you that show no concern for it whatsoever.

You may call it paranoid. I simply call it my civic duty.