Church of the Apostles found

  • You are viewing Orangepower as a Guest. To start new threads, reply to posts, or participate in polls or contests - you must register. Registration is free and easy. Click Here to register.

NotOnTV

BRB -- Taking an okie leak
Sep 14, 2010
8,362
6,332
743
Gondor
#2
I have been on an archaeological tour of this area while they were digging here. Just a few miles from Capernaum. Definitely mind blowing stuff to see on this shoreline.
 

CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
16,364
2,585
1,743
So Cal
#3
I found it interesting that it was a tourist stop back in the day.... and local Christians still knew about it, 2000 years later

it is mentioned in Byzantine pilgrimage itineraries, many thought these reports mistaken,” he explained. “Of equal importance, the church indicates that there existed a living memory in the Christian community about the location of Bethsaida, home of Peter, Andrew and Philip
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
31,526
13,579
1,743
40
Stillwater
#4
I found it interesting that it was a tourist stop back in the day.... and local Christians still knew about it, 2000 years later

it is mentioned in Byzantine pilgrimage itineraries, many thought these reports mistaken,” he explained. “Of equal importance, the church indicates that there existed a living memory in the Christian community about the location of Bethsaida, home of Peter, Andrew and Philip
I always find those assumptions funny when it comes to archeology. Jericho didn't exist until it did. Nineveh didn't exist until it did. I would have thought the itineraries would have indicated that it was real. Medieval religious travelers weren't any more interested than we are to waste their time on useless locations. It isn't like they could jump into their Land Rover and drive 75mph somewhere else. 10miles is a days travel.
 

CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
16,364
2,585
1,743
So Cal
#5
I always find those assumptions funny when it comes to archeology. Jericho didn't exist until it did. Nineveh didn't exist until it did. I would have thought the itineraries would have indicated that it was real. Medieval religious travelers weren't any more interested than we are to waste their time on useless locations. It isn't like they could jump into their Land Rover and drive 75mph somewhere else. 10miles is a days travel.
I have no idea what this post says, or is trying to say.... a little help please.

Pilgrimages were apparently common back then, and are still popular now.

NO idea what you're talking about.
 

NTXPoke

Wrangler
Jul 10, 2009
222
164
1,593
58
Stillwater, OK
#6
I have no idea what this post says, or is trying to say.... a little help please.

Pilgrimages were apparently common back then, and are still popular now.

NO idea what you're talking about.
I'm fairly certain that he is saying that these old itineraries exist, yet current archaeologists didn't think that they referred to real places. They didn't consider them to be a reliable resource to locate historical sites.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
31,526
13,579
1,743
40
Stillwater
#7
I have no idea what this post says, or is trying to say.... a little help please.

Pilgrimages were apparently common back then, and are still popular now.

NO idea what you're talking about.
Historians and archeologists seem to be quick to assume things weren't real. This church, Jericho, Nineveh, etc. The quote you used from the article talked about them thinking the itineraries of the religious pilgrims were "mistaken." I was saying that I think that would be more confirmation that it was real. People traveled, yes, but it was a much larger undertaking and putting pointless stops on the trip wouldn't make sense at all.
 

CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
16,364
2,585
1,743
So Cal
#9
Historians and archeologists seem to be quick to assume things weren't real. This church, Jericho, Nineveh, etc. The quote you used from the article talked about them thinking the itineraries of the religious pilgrims were "mistaken." I was saying that I think that would be more confirmation that it was real. People traveled, yes, but it was a much larger undertaking and putting pointless stops on the trip wouldn't make sense at all.
got cha..... actually it says "scholars" doubted the existence... the historians and archaeologists did not doubt so.

much like today, you can't really trust much coming out of academia
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
31,526
13,579
1,743
40
Stillwater
#11
got cha..... actually it says "scholars" doubted the existence... the historians and archaeologists did not doubt so.

much like today, you can't really trust much coming out of academia
It does say scholars, but in truth, you can usually say something like that in reverse. While some scholars think one thing there are usually others that feel different about it.

The Bible is an excellent example of this because there are many examples of places that have been thought to be made up that have proven to exist.

I teach history, and I love studying it. I get really annoyed by the assumption people in the distant past were wrong(lesser). In this case, the pilgrim's itineraries. It's not what they necessarily intend to create that impression, but I read it that way. Why would they want to waste their time? Travelling was rough. It probably feels like a minor point or complaint on my part.
 

CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
16,364
2,585
1,743
So Cal
#13
It does say scholars, but in truth, you can usually say something like that in reverse. While some scholars think one thing there are usually others that feel different about it.

The Bible is an excellent example of this because there are many examples of places that have been thought to be made up that have proven to exist.

I teach history, and I love studying it. I get really annoyed by the assumption people in the distant past were wrong(lesser). In this case, the pilgrim's itineraries. It's not what they necessarily intend to create that impression, but I read it that way. Why would they want to waste their time? Travelling was rough. It probably feels like a minor point or complaint on my part.
Pilgrimages were pretty common, even though travel was rough - especially the religious variety. Many Muslims still have annual pilgrimages.

Church after church in the US have frequent excursions to the "Holy Land".

Back in the day, it was common to travel from Europe to the Holy Land, which is why the Knights Templar flourished with their banking, and why the Crusades occurred, for the most part.

Keeping an itinerary or a journal would not be uncommon either.
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
31,526
13,579
1,743
40
Stillwater
#14
Pilgrimages were pretty common, even though travel was rough - especially the religious variety. Many Muslims still have annual pilgrimages.

Church after church in the US have frequent excursions to the "Holy Land".

Back in the day, it was common to travel from Europe to the Holy Land, which is why the Knights Templar flourished with their banking, and why the Crusades occurred, for the most part.

Keeping an itinerary or a journal would not be uncommon either.
That's my point about the itinerary. No one wants to waste their time, so why doubt them or expect them to be mistaken about where they were going? Pilgrimages are nothing new nor out of style. People still aren't trying to visit pointless places.
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
7,873
3,724
743
49
#15
It does say scholars, but in truth, you can usually say something like that in reverse. While some scholars think one thing there are usually others that feel different about it.

The Bible is an excellent example of this because there are many examples of places that have been thought to be made up that have proven to exist.

I teach history, and I love studying it. I get really annoyed by the assumption people in the distant past were wrong(lesser). In this case, the pilgrim's itineraries. It's not what they necessarily intend to create that impression, but I read it that way. Why would they want to waste their time? Travelling was rough. It probably feels like a minor point or complaint on my part.
Pilgrimages were pretty common, even though travel was rough - especially the religious variety. Many Muslims still have annual pilgrimages.

Church after church in the US have frequent excursions to the "Holy Land".

Back in the day, it was common to travel from Europe to the Holy Land, which is why the Knights Templar flourished with their banking, and why the Crusades occurred, for the most part.

Keeping an itinerary or a journal would not be uncommon either.
I'm curious how do you think the crusades had anything to do with pilgrimages specifically?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
16,364
2,585
1,743
So Cal
#16
I'm curious how do you think the crusades had anything to do with pilgrimages specifically?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
I do not "think it".... google is your friend. What exactly do you think a pilgrimage means?

pil·grim·age noun
1. a pilgrim's journey.

synonyms: religious journey, holy expedition, crusade, mission, trip, journey, excursion
 

GodsPeace

Joshua 1:9
Aug 20, 2004
31,526
13,579
1,743
40
Stillwater
#17
I'm curious how do you think the crusades had anything to do with pilgrimages specifically?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
A lot, but it was used politically/religiously as the calling card to rile everyone up to protect the pilgrims who traveled there. There have been pilgrimages to the Holy Lands for a long time. Depending on the sourcing, one of the issues was Pilgrims being attacked by Muslims. A lot of books that I have read on the subject downplay the overall issues with that in terms of how bad/frequent attacks were.
 

wrenhal

Territorial Marshal
Aug 11, 2011
7,873
3,724
743
49
#18
I'm curious how do you think the crusades had anything to do with pilgrimages specifically?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
I do not "think it".... google is your friend. What exactly do you think a pilgrimage means?

pil·grim·age noun
1. a pilgrim's journey.

synonyms: religious journey, holy expedition, crusade, mission, trip, journey, excursion
The crusades were in response to the increasing aggression and land taking by the Muslims. I was wondering why you held to a simple belief that the crusades were because of the pilgrimages. While they did help keep pilgrims safe, they also went on the offensive.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
 

CaliforniaCowboy

Federal Marshal
Oct 15, 2003
16,364
2,585
1,743
So Cal
#19
The crusades were in response to the increasing aggression and land taking by the Muslims. I was wondering why you held to a simple belief that the crusades were because of the pilgrimages. While they did help keep pilgrims safe, they also went on the offensive.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Tapatalk
The crusades WERE/ARE a pilgrimage. Didn't you see the definition. In historic texts they are often referred to as a military pilgrimage.

Aside from that.... their purpose was to retake the Holy Lands so that people could safely travel there. The Knights Templar (and other knights) set up a banking system where pilgrims/travels could deposit their money at one end, receive credits, and then exchange them back for money when they reached their destination.

I'm not really sure that I understand your question or your confusion. It just is. That's the way it is described and retold (by practically everybody).

I'm not sure what you're asking.