Active shooter at Texas elementary school

[StillwaterTownie]

Gun control is next to impossible; try harder at crazy people control.

 

[TexanCowboy]

I don't know what I'm supposed to do with those quotes. People are emotional. I'm saying both sides want the same thing. Zero school shootings.

Just an example of the current political discourse in the country and how it has zero effectiveness.

 

[cableok]

Robert Francis O'Rourke is a human piece of shit.

A candidate for Governor grandstanding to draw attention to himself during a time of incredible tragedy. The extreme core of his voters will like his disgusting act unfortunately (a la just like MTG's core base apparently is okay with her actions).

 

[MustangPokeFan]

There are more guns in the US than there are people. The vast majority of which are owned by law abiding citizens for protection, hunting, etc.

Only 30% of Americans own guns according to the latest pew research which means less that a third of Americans owns all those guns in the US.

Gun owners and gun lobbies better start offering up some good solutions and start putting their resources and weight behind those solutions or the remaining 70% is going to do something about it that might not be good in the long run.

Gun lobbies are extremely powerful. They need to start playing offense instead of defense.

I highly doubt that statistic that you cited. It’s definitely not correct for Oklahoma. I’d say it’s more like 80% of Oklahoma’s own firearms.

 

[MustangPokeFan]

If there were no guns in the world, the sick in the head individuals would just make a bomb, light the school on fire, drive through the playground mowing kids down with his car, poison the cafeteria food or any number of ways to commit atrocities. Why do we keep blaming the tool of choice instead of addressing the reasons sick individuals get this way like absence of parenting, violence in movies and video games and disturbing online sites that are allowed to exist?

I am not a huge fan of this argument. All of these items you listed are tools: bombs, fire, vehicle... with the exception of poison... that have other purposes. You can add knives to that list too.

Guns are made for and have only one purpose, to kill. Every advancement in guns, since their invention, is it to make them more efficient at killing.

Also, not going to entertain the clay pigeons, target shooting or ornamental gun responses. You can find an exception in every argument.

I would argue firearms have a much greater additional use than those things that you cited. The primary use is self defense and protecting one’s home. It’s also for protecting yourself against a tyrannical government and it was insured for all Americans by our Founders. Stop blaming the tool and start looking at the fool and examining how they got that way! We really have to stop and analyze why we are producing so many psychopaths and the reason is not because guns exist.

 

[osupsycho]

I highly doubt that statistic that you cited. It’s definitely not correct for Oklahoma. I’d say it’s more like 80% of Oklahoma’s own firearms.

I wonder if they are including children into that to skew the number. In other words using the total population instead of the total population eligible to own guns.

 

[TheMonkey]

Amazing. Border patrol agent who was nearby rushed into the school when it started and, without backup, put down the monster. Incredible heroism. Scary enough it could have been worse if not for him.

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That is highly commendable. At the same time, we shouldn't need such heroic efforts.

When I consulted Oil & Gas companies, that was part of our focus. We actually looked at heroic effort as a sign of a bigger, systemic problem. That's exactly what is happening here. We have a huge, systemic issue that won't be solved by a series of heroic efforts.

We have to change the system.

@CowboyJD moved you from saying there was nothing that could be done to now claiming there's a slippery slope (which is a logical fallacy, meaning it's a lousy argument). You've admitted things could be done. Now, you just need to admit they should.

Otherwise, we'll continue to rely on heroic effort until we run out of heroes.

 

[StillwaterTownie]

I highly doubt that statistic cited. It’s definitely not correct for Oklahoma. I’d say it’s more like 80% of Oklahoma’s own firearms.

Maybe as much as 80% for the Oklahomans who are rural residents. Otherwise, 54.7% percent of adults in Oklahoma own firearms.

Gun Ownership by State 2022 (worldpopulationreview.com)

 

[kaboy42]

Maybe as much 80% for the Oklahomans who are rural living. Otherwise, 31.2 percent of adults in Oklahoma own firearms, ranking the state 29th. Just because everybody you knows owns at least one gun doesn't mean nearly everybody does.

In Oklahoma, a Quickening Pace of Gun Deaths - Oklahoma Watch

Again... those numbers are more than likely garnered by surveys. And many, many MANY gun owners will never actually admit to gun ownership. ESPECIALLY to a survey.

Edit: actually, their answer most of the time would be "none of your damned business".

 

[PokeJ]

I highly doubt that statistic cited. It’s definitely not correct for Oklahoma. I’d say it’s more like 80% of Oklahoma’s own firearms.

Maybe as much as 80% for the Oklahomans who are rural residents. Otherwise, 54.7% percent of adults in Oklahoma own firearms.

Gun Ownership by State 2022 (worldpopulationreview.com)

Owning a gun doesn’t mean you are against some forms of gun control.


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[RxCowboy]

Man talk about someone not understanding statistics. I mean how many more school children are there in the country compared to law enforcement. More dangerous only works when using the total number for each. It’s guys like these that are just trying to get clicks with bs, instead of trying to find real ways to fix things that bug me.

I was about to say something about his use of statistics.

 

[teachum]

I highly doubt that statistic that you cited. It’s definitely not correct for Oklahoma. I’d say it’s more like 80% of Oklahoma’s own firearms.

I'd say you might be right for households, but not individuals.

 

[TheMonkey]

Guns did not kill any kids, a sick mentally deranged individual did.

… and without assault rifles and large capacity magazines, some of those 19 kids would likely still be alive.

So, guns did in fact kill kids.

 

[gundysburner]

That is highly commendable. At the same time, we shouldn't need such heroic efforts.

When I consulted Oil & Gas companies, that was part of our focus. We actually looked at heroic effort as a sign of a bigger, systemic problem. That's exactly what is happening here. We have a huge, systemic issue that won't be solved by a series of heroic efforts.

We have to change the system.

@CowboyJD moved you from saying there was nothing that could be done to now claiming there's a slippery slope (which is a logical fallacy, meaning it's a lousy argument). You've admitted things could be done. Now, you just need to admit they should.

Otherwise, we'll continue to rely on heroic effort until we run out of heroes.

Such as?

 

[CowboyChop]

I would argue firearms have a much greater additional use than those things that you cited. The primary use is self defense and protecting one’s home. It’s also for protecting yourself against a tyrannical government and it was insured for all Americans by our Founders. Stop blaming the tool and start looking at the fool and examining how they got that way! We really have to stop and analyze why we are producing so many psychopaths and the reason is not because guns exist.

We are arguing two different things. You are arguing secondary uses, I was arguing primary purpose for why they exist.

We got a lot of psychopaths who are guaranteed a gun under our freedoms and a lot people who are willing to defend a psychopath's right to a gun.

 

[Pokit N]

… and without assault rifles and large capacity magazines, some of those 19 kids would likely still be alive.

So, guns did in fact kill kids.

I think he could have done just as much carnage w/ a hand gun or a shotgun. When an armed guy is literally alone in a room full of unarmed children it really doesn't matter what kind of weapon he has.

 

[CowboyChop]

I highly doubt that statistic that you cited. It’s definitely not correct for Oklahoma. I’d say it’s more like 80% of Oklahoma’s own firearms.

I wonder if they are including children into that to skew the number. In other words using the total population instead of the total population eligible to own guns.

Maybe as much as 80% for the Oklahomans who are rural residents. Otherwise, 54.7% percent of adults in Oklahoma own firearms.

Original Quote

Only 30% of Americans own guns according to the latest pew research which means less that a third of Americans owns all those guns in the US.

Here's where I got this...

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/

Here is another article about Super Owners so the 30% isn't that far fetched.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/20/gun-ownership-america-firearms-super-owners

"The 39-year-old is now one of America’s firearms super-owners – part of the 3% of American adults who collectively own 130m firearms, half of the nation’s total stock of civilian guns.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/sep/19/us-gun-ownership-survey

I didn't do a full analysis of the survey methods used but when you have a couple of resources with similar finding the 30% doesn't seem that far fetched.

Original Point

Gun owners and gun lobbies better start offering up some good solutions and start putting their resources and weight behind those solutions or the remaining 70% is going to do something about it that might not be good in the long run.

Gun lobbies are extremely powerful. They need to start playing offense instead of defense.

I think nationally, gun owners (responsible ones and the goof balls), who are in the minority, better start offering up solutions (doesn't have to be gun control) and help facilitate those solutions or the vast majority of Americans who don't own guns will make the decision for them.

 

[LS1 Z28]

… and without assault rifles and large capacity magazines, some of those 19 kids would likely still be alive.

So, guns did in fact kill kids.

I think he could have done just as much carnage w/ a hand gun or a shotgun. When an armed guy is literally alone in a room full of unarmed children it really doesn't matter what kind of weapon he has.

The deadliest school shooting in the history of our country occurred at Virginia Tech. The shooter used two common handguns. Both were purchased legally with a background check.

 

[TheMonkey]

Such as?

Maybe we look at countries like Australia who tackled this years ago and didn't repeal legislation like we did.
Primarily limiting the availability of large capacity magazines.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/1745-9133.12485
"The federal ban on assault weapons and large-capacity (>10 rounds) ammunition magazines of 1994 had exemptions and loopholes that limited its short-term effects, but its expiration in 2004 was followed by an increase in the use of these weapons in mass shootings and other crimes."

 

[OSUPsych]

Owning a gun doesn’t mean you are against some forms of gun control.


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Gun owner here who would like to see the following: increased age limits, waiting periods, background checks and potentially training requirements for anything more dangerous than a .22.

I'd also like improved bullying response protocols for schools and potentially for parents to be held accountable for violent crimes committee by their children when they had reasonable steps available to them that would have directly prevented it, which could include failing to seek services, report risk, and giving them firearms. The standards for the latter would need compassionate and supportive application, but are absolutely geared toward situations where parents blow off risks identified by the school, like the Michigan shooting where the parents bought him the gun and didn't seem to take school concerns seriously. Schools already have to have safety plans and it's such a common thing now, that it seems superfluous, but if there's room on that front, I'm game. I'm also flexible and open to other ideas, even if I think the whole thing is hopeless. I would be very happy to be proven wrong.