Covid-19

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RxCowboy

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Yes. You have to survive the infection to reach natural immunity.

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:facepalm:No s**t? I know I'm going to regret this but here goes. I'm interpreting his statement to mean that if I had covid, (and survived:woot:) , the natural immunity gained from that infection does not help in stopping a subsequent infection or death.
Nice strawman, but that isn't what I was saying.

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RxCowboy

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I'm a survivor does that mean I don't have to play vaccine roulette?
In other words, you already played roulette with a Colt 45 revolver and made it, but now you are worried about playing it with a paintball gun even though there is huge benefit.
The red colored paint balls make the blue balls bounce off you.

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LS1 Z28

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So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.
I don't believe this is true. The WHO estimates that previous infection provides 80-90% protection from reinfection, and up to 94% protection against symptomatic disease.

I haven't seen any case fatality rate data for reinfections. That's probably because reinfections are rare and the data is scarce. But I have to believe that if natural immunity provides 94% protection against symptomatic disease, it significantly reduces the odds of severe infection and death.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that anyone should wait to be infected to gain natural immunity. That's an ignorant belief. The ultimate goal is to avoid getting infected altogether.
 

Deere Poke

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In other words, you already played roulette with a Colt 45 revolver and made it, but now you are worried about playing it with a paintball gun even though there is huge benefit.
Sad but true story in my life. People I actually know and have sat down and talked with being the group. I know more that have died from heart issues after the vax than have died from the virus. So in my experience the vax is more like the 45 and the virus is more like the paint gun.
 

RxCowboy

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In other words, you already played roulette with a Colt 45 revolver and made it, but now you are worried about playing it with a paintball gun even though there is huge benefit.
Sad but true story in my life. People I actually know and have sat down and talked with being the group. I know more that have died from heart issues after the vax than have died from the virus. So in my experience the vax is more like the 45 and the virus is more like the paint gun.
This is solipsistic. You cannot generalize from your experience because:

1. The world is bigger than your experience, and
2. Your biases tend to influence the memories of your experience.

This is true for everyone and exactly why we have to do clinical trials.

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gogetumpoke

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I don't believe this is true. The WHO estimates that previous infection provides 80-90% protection from reinfection, and up to 94% protection against symptomatic disease.

I haven't seen any case fatality rate data for reinfections. That's probably because reinfections are rare and the data is scarce. But I have to believe that if natural immunity provides 94% protection against symptomatic disease, it significantly reduces the odds of severe infection and death.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that anyone should wait to be infected to gain natural immunity. That's an ignorant belief. The ultimate goal is to avoid getting infected altogether.
Please stop with all the facts and logic. You have stumbled into the wrong thread. Did you not see the nugget about how you have to survive covid to get the immunity? Whoda thunk it??
 

steross

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Sad but true story in my life. People I actually know and have sat down and talked with being the group. I know more that have died from heart issues after the vax than have died from the virus. So in my experience the vax is more like the 45 and the virus is more like the paint gun.
I took care of a guy that refused to wear a seatbelt because he knew someone that drove off a bridge into a lake and drowned so he thinks seatbelts are risky.
In medicine, science trumps personal experience all day and every day.

Note, expert opinion is very low evidence and non-expert opinion doesn't even make the list.

Screen Shot 2021-09-16 at 11.22.04 AM.png
 
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Deere Poke

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I took care of a guy that refused to wear a seatbelt because he knew someone that drove off a bridge into a lake and drowned so he thinks seatbelts are risky.
In medicine, science trumps personal experience all day and every day.
Yep and science says natural immunity is good, I have it. Science also says this vaccine has some serious risk that appear to be greater than previous vaccines. There is no scientific data on long term effects from it. We could go on and on. Why should people that have natural immunity have to play vaccine roulette in the U.S.? They don't in other countries around the world.
 

RxCowboy

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I took care of a guy that refused to wear a seatbelt because he knew someone that drove off a bridge into a lake and drowned so he thinks seatbelts are risky.
In medicine, science trumps personal experience all day and every day.
Yep and science says natural immunity is good, I have it. Science also says this vaccine has some serious risk that appear to be greater than previous vaccines. There is no scientific data on long term effects from it. We could go on and on. Why should people that have natural immunity have to play vaccine roulette in the U.S.? They don't in other countries around the world.
Natural immunity might be roughly equal at preventing subsequent infections, but it is obviously vastly inferior at preventing sequelae. From NEJM:


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wrenhal

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Everyone seems to be missing a big part of this discussion on vaccinated vs immunity from infection. The vaccine was originally designed to just keep an infection from becoming severe and causing a hospitalization and/or death. As it turned out the vaccines were highly effective as keeping you from getting the virus in the first place, or I should say were before the Delta variant showed up. However even with Delta the vaccine is still effective at its original intent considering that around 96% of hospitalizations/death now are from non vaccinated (and around another 3% that are vaccinated have 3 or more underlying conditions). So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.
See I have problem with those numbers. That 96% according to CDC specifications includes people who have tried to get vaccinated. So they have one vaccine dosage of a two-shot regimen, or they have two shots but are less than 14 days from the time of their last dose. I only say I have a problem with it in the fact that those numbers are being used to insinuate hospitalizations are mostly unvaxxed people, when they do include people who were in the middle of or had just recently got fully vaxxed.

Just talking out loud with a little bit of a nitpick, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

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RxCowboy

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Sad but true story in my life. People I actually know and have sat down and talked with being the group. I know more that have died from heart issues after the vax than have died from the virus. So in my experience the vax is more like the 45 and the virus is more like the paint gun.
I took care of a guy that refused to wear a seatbelt because he knew someone that drove off a bridge into a lake and drowned so he thinks seatbelts are risky.
In medicine, science trumps personal experience all day and every day.

Note, expert opinion is very low evidence and non-expert opinion doesn't even make the list.

View attachment 92089
Note: case reports ARE experience. However, we give as many details as possible so that the READER can judge the quality and importance of the experience.

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RxCowboy

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Everyone seems to be missing a big part of this discussion on vaccinated vs immunity from infection. The vaccine was originally designed to just keep an infection from becoming severe and causing a hospitalization and/or death. As it turned out the vaccines were highly effective as keeping you from getting the virus in the first place, or I should say were before the Delta variant showed up. However even with Delta the vaccine is still effective at its original intent considering that around 96% of hospitalizations/death now are from non vaccinated (and around another 3% that are vaccinated have 3 or more underlying conditions). So in other words immunity from a previous covid infection only helps you with the first part of being less likely to get it again, but does not help you with the the most important part of helping stop a severe infection and death.
See I have problem with those numbers. That 96% according to CDC specifications includes people who have tried to get vaccinated. So they have one vaccine dosage of a two-shot regimen, or they have two shots but are less than 14 days from the time of their last dose. I only say I have a problem with it in the fact that those numbers are being used to insinuate hospitalizations are mostly unvaxxed people, when they do include people who were in the middle of or had just recently got fully vaxxed.

Just talking out loud with a little bit of a nitpick, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

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What's your definition of "mostly"?

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steross

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Yep and science says natural immunity is good, I have it. Science also says this vaccine has some serious risk that appear to be greater than previous vaccines. There is no scientific data on long term effects from it. We could go on and on. Why should people that have natural immunity have to play vaccine roulette in the U.S.? They don't in other countries around the world.
Natural is OK, natural plus vaccine is better.

No, you are wrong. The side effect profile of this vaccine is incredibly good compared to prior vaccines.

Vaccines last in the body a few days. There have never been "long-term effects" that show up years later with prior vaccines and there will not be with these.

We aren't discussing mandating. We are discussing your concerns and I am explaining them away because they aren't correct. And, yes, I know I will not change your mind. I'm not really even trying to. I am doing this because they should not be left out there for others to read when they are not correct. Disinformation is a huge threat right now.

When did you start wanting to follow the lead of other countries? You have always been an America first guy when I have brought up good things about other places.
 
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Yep and science says natural immunity is good, I have it. Science also says this vaccine has some serious risk that appear to be greater than previous vaccines. There is no scientific data on long term effects from it. We could go on and on. Why should people that have natural immunity have to play vaccine roulette in the U.S.? They don't in other countries around the world.
Currently traveling through Europe, and the previous infection proof is only for the past 60 or 90 days. Otherwise you have to prove a negative covid test or vaccination.

But your premise I can understand and lean towards. I’ve gotten Pfizer and survived covid, but if there are long term effects that are unknown as of now, I sure as hell want retribution for something that was essentially forced upon me. I understand science is better than 2000’s but the issues vets suffer because of the anthrax vaccine are real. Right now the world is the clinical trial, albeit the largest one ever.
 

RxCowboy

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Yep and science says natural immunity is good, I have it. Science also says this vaccine has some serious risk that appear to be greater than previous vaccines. There is no scientific data on long term effects from it. We could go on and on. Why should people that have natural immunity have to play vaccine roulette in the U.S.? They don't in other countries around the world.
Currently traveling through Europe, and the previous infection proof is only for the past 60 or 90 days. Otherwise you have to prove a negative covid test or vaccination.

But your premise I can understand and lean towards. I’ve gotten Pfizer and survived covid, but if there are long term effects that are unknown as of now, I sure as hell want retribution for something that was essentially forced upon me. I understand science is better than 2000’s but the issues vets suffer because of the anthrax vaccine are real. Right now the world is the clinical trial, albeit the largest one ever.
See the chart I posted from NEJM.

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I'm a survivor does that mean I don't have to play vaccine roulette?
Calling yourself a “survivor” for having COVID seems a little dramatic, unless you are a senior… don’t you think?

I had COVID previously as well. I think I would receive some deserved eye rolls from my dad (two cancers and has a pacemaker) if I referred to myself as a survivor.
 

steross

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See I have problem with those numbers. That 96% according to CDC specifications includes people who have tried to get vaccinated. So they have one vaccine dosage of a two-shot regimen, or they have two shots but are less than 14 days from the time of their last dose. I only say I have a problem with it in the fact that those numbers are being used to insinuate hospitalizations are mostly unvaxxed people, when they do include people who were in the middle of or had just recently got fully vaxxed.

Just talking out loud with a little bit of a nitpick, back to your regularly scheduled thread.

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Because trying isn't completing. Does the police officer care if you were trying not to speed? Does he care that even though you were going 60 in a 55 you had been at 65 so you were almost there? Does the landlord care that you started working and tried to pay the rent but you haven't quite got your first paycheck yet?

In what part of life do you put the people who didn't do something but are trying to in the numbers for people who have done it to see the results of having it done? That is the most bizarre "problem with those numbers" I have ever heard.