VOTE! Election thread

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What will be the results of todays vote?

  • Trump wins big

    Votes: 11 14.1%
  • Trump wins small

    Votes: 12 15.4%
  • No decision by tomorrow morning

    Votes: 29 37.2%
  • Biden wins small

    Votes: 17 21.8%
  • Biden wins big

    Votes: 9 11.5%

  • Total voters
    78
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steross

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Seattle Statue of Vladimir Lenin says hi...if we start tearing down more statues, I vote for this one being put on the list.
View attachment 87377
But I digress...We should leave it as we are Americans and aren't afraid of statues and freedom of ideas and such...Tearing down statues is stupid...putting signs in front of them for people to learn way they exited would be awesome...
The gas chambers still exist in Poland and other parts of Eroupe to remind people of bad things...they aren't torn down to hide the truth. This is what should be done with the slave markets, other much less egregious statues should be left alone and have the history of the person written in front of them...for Linen I would suggest:... "This man was personally responsible for the Russian Civil War and the Red Terror, which directly resulted in the deaths of millions."
I think we have national battlefields and other war memorials to show the history of the civil war. And, I am pretty sure the gas chambers similarly still exist to show history. Now, if you can find a statue of Hitler, Gobbles, Goering or other Nazi leaders that were erected in Germany many years after the war by groups with names like "Daughters of the Nazis" as a way to "show history" then that would be a similar thing. But, they do not exist. Because they aren't history. These statues were put up decades after the fact to memorialize racism. Anyone looking at the intent of the real memorials vs these statues when erected can see the obvious difference.

The Lenin statue was bought after the fall of communism from a communist country by a private collector and is displayed on private land. Making it completely irrelevant to publicly displayed racist soldiers and politicians on public land. But again, the truth doesn't matter much for those seeking excuses to continue to publicly honor those that fought against our nation for the side of slavery and racism.

Finally, displaying memorial statues to people then writing bad things about them is not only crazy, it would desecrate the concept of a memorial. Do we really want a bunch of memorials that you can drive by and not know if the memorial is to blast the person or honor them unless you stop and read the fine print at the bottom? What a completely nonsensical idea, which, again, shows the depths of rationalization that people will go through to continue to memorialize racists.
 

steross

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I feel strongly about this because slavery is the biggest blight on the history of our nation. I do not want any appearance that we are still honoring that blight. The question is if you still feel strongly that these statues to honor those that fought for racism and against our country are important to you, why? Picture being a black American seeing those people memorialized in your town and how it must make them feel. If you don't care about that, then you really need to think about your outlook on this world.

Now that we have a SCOTUS that will probably at some point overturn Roe v Wade, we should put up statues to George Tiller and other prominent abortion doctors in our public squares. It is, after all, our history, and he was martyred for his actions. If the thought of driving past a Tiller memorial statue every day makes your stomach turn, consider how others feel about memorials honoring the men that fought with their lives to subjugate their ancestors.
 

Rack

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I feel strongly about this because slavery is the biggest blight on the history of our nation. I do not want any appearance that we are still honoring that blight. The question is if you still feel strongly that these statues to honor those that fought for racism and against our country are important to you, why? Picture being a black American seeing those people memorialized in your town and how it must make them feel. If you don't care about that, then you really need to think about your outlook on this world.

Now that we have a SCOTUS that will probably at some point overturn Roe v Wade, we should put up statues to George Tiller and other prominent abortion doctors in our public squares. It is, after all, our history, and he was martyred for his actions. If the thought of driving past a Tiller memorial statue every day makes your stomach turn, consider how others feel about memorials honoring the men that fought with their lives to subjugate their ancestors.
Freedom loving societies don't destroy statues and works of art from former populations. Differences of opinion and of thought should be allowed to exist no matter how different. It's a form of censorship practices by lots of other societies who are less freedom loving than our own. What makes us any different or better than those that do this if we allow wanton destruction based on each persons emotional feelings? If not for our tolerance for others and their beliefs then we have no tolerance and believe ourselves to be their better. And, to your argument, IMHO it's far more likely that we start seeing monuments to Roe vs Wade supporters than those who are not, it is their right if it is allowed locally to happen...I drive by a brand new "monument" (Planned Parenthood) to active slaughter of the unborn every day. I, as a supporter of life AND liberty, have no right to deface public or private property...So I ask you.. who are we? IF we are NOT tolerant of others and those that went before are we any better off than these show below?

1606678808580.png

Are we these guys?

1606678950616.png

Or these guys?

1606678468818.png

Or these guys?

1606678398347.png

How about these guys?
1606679231859.png

Or maybe we are just this stupid.

And, before you post it...no I'm not even necessarily for the removal of statues to Saddam Husain, Stalin, or even stinking Hitler...It's makes a ton more sense to me to give an account of why that statue was placed in the first place and why it's now deemed evil or not based on current and well meaning standards of ethics. As a visitor to those populations it is up to me to discern their meaning and study why they are there...good or bad, positive or negative, my narrative of history shouldn't be forced upon me, but should be mine to learn and discern as a free person in a free society. The only thing, ironically, that should be forced upon me is a tolerance of others and their beliefs. This is how America typically behaves and IF we would allow that we could point people in our current addition of new agreed upon historic signage rather than subtraction of statues. It seems to me we lose something when we lose our tolerance for the past and it's mistakes and make ourselves the present day God's to judge humanities sins. Especially while we arrogantly deny our own. If we only allowed statues of figures we all agree with everything that they did, we wouldn't have any statues. Rome would be barren, Athens void of adornment, the great wall of China, and Egypt's pyramids would all be torn to the ground...after all, all these things were built by forced labor under rule of those who owned and harbored slaves of all races and creeds. We cannot learn from things we remove and erase...
 
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steross

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Freedom loving societies don't destroy statues and works of art from former populations. Differences of opinion and of thought should be allowed to exist no matter how different. It's a form of censorship practices by lots of other societies who are less freedom loving than our own. What makes us any different or better than those that do this if we allow wanton destruction based on each persons emotional feelings? If not for our tolerance for others and their beliefs then we have no tolerance and believe ourselves to be their better. And, to your argument, IMHO it's far more likely that we start seeing monuments to Roe vs Wade supporters than those who are not, it is their right if it is allowed locally to happen...I drive by a brand new "monument" (Planned Parenthood) to active slaughter of the unborn every day. I, as a supporter of life AND liberty, have no right to deface public or private property...So I ask you.. who are we? IF we are NOT tolerant of others and those that went before are we any better off than these show below?

View attachment 87408
Are we these guys?

View attachment 87409
Or these guys?

View attachment 87407
Or these guys?

View attachment 87406
How about these guys?
View attachment 87410
Or maybe we are just this stupid.

And, before you post it...no I'm not even necessarily for the removal of statues to Saddam Husain, Stalin, or even stinking Hitler...It's makes a ton more sense to me to give an account of why that statue was placed in the first place and why it's now deemed evil or not based on current and well meaning standards of ethics. As a visitor to those populations it is up to me to discern their meaning and study why they are there...good or bad, positive or negative, my narrative of history shouldn't be forced upon me, but should be mine to learn and discern as a free person in a free society. The only thing, ironically, that should be forced upon me is a tolerance of others and their beliefs. This is how America typically behaves and IF we would allow that we could point people in our current addition of new agreed upon historic signage rather than subtraction of statues. It seems to me we lose something when we lose our tolerance for the past and it's mistakes and make ourselves the present day God's to judge humanities sins. Especially while we arrogantly deny our own. If we only allowed statues of figures we all agree with everything that they did, we wouldn't have any statues. Rome would be barren, Athens void of adornment, the great wall of China, and Egypt's pyramids would all be torn to the ground...after all, all these things were built by forced labor under rule of those who owned and harbored slaves of all races and creeds. We cannot learn from things we remove and erase...
You are rationalizing racism by comparing fresh apples with rotten fake oranges. I could take the time to dismantle each of these wrong comparisons but you are not going to change your selfish mind so I won't bother.

I can be tolerant of your belief (as in I am not trying to imprison you for saying it) but still believe and state that it is racist filth. You seem to not understand the meaning of tolerance or the meaning of a memorial. Planned parenthood is a building. It has a function. It is not a monument with the only function to honor the person or idea.

You are trying to keep monuments placed to honor racists with the goal of keeping black Americans oppressed. That is why they exist. Tearing them down is nothing at all like tearing down the Buddhist statues that were incredible works and not monuments to harmful ideas. These confederate statues are run-of-the-mill mass-produced memorials designed to foster Jim Crow era policies, not amazing works of human achievement.

Again, you are rationalizing continuing racism with absurd comparisons. This is exactly like Germany maintaining a memorial statue of Hitler in a town square to keep his beliefs in the public eye and give them credence. Your "put a sign on it" idea is like putting a warning on child porn. Racism should not be in the public square as a memorial, even with a sign. That is honestly one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard from you.

Like kiddie porn, serial killing, rape, and many other things, slavery is not to be "tolerated." Memorials to people who are infamous for their fight for slavery is not to be tolerated.
 

Rack

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You are rationalizing racism by comparing fresh apples with rotten fake oranges. I could take the time to dismantle each of these wrong comparisons but you are not going to change your selfish mind so I won't bother.

I can be tolerant of your belief (as in I am not trying to imprison you for saying it) but still believe and state that it is racist filth. You seem to not understand the meaning of tolerance or the meaning of a memorial. Planned parenthood is a building. It has a function. It is not a monument with the only function to honor the person or idea.

You are trying to keep monuments placed to honor racists with the goal of keeping black Americans oppressed. That is why they exist. Tearing them down is nothing at all like tearing down the Buddhist statues that were incredible works and not monuments to harmful ideas. These confederate statues are run-of-the-mill mass-produced memorials designed to foster Jim Crow era policies, not amazing works of human achievement.

Again, you are rationalizing continuing racism with absurd comparisons. This is exactly like Germany maintaining a memorial statue of Hitler in a town square to keep his beliefs in the public eye and give them credence. Your "put a sign on it" idea is like putting a warning on child porn. Racism should not be in the public square as a memorial, even with a sign. That is honestly one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard from you.

Like kiddie porn, serial killing, rape, and many other things, slavery is not to be "tolerated." Memorials to people who are infamous for their fight for slavery is not to be tolerated.
NOTHING I said rationalizes racism. What you just wrote...I must say...is complete BS and a total misrepresentation of what I typed...seems you, like much of the left, no matter how intelligent they may be, also stoop to calling people racist (who aren't) when they have lost an argument.

Washington and Jefferson BOTH, while for the freedom of man, ironically, also owned slaves...Do you want their monuments torn down as well? Just trying to find out where you draw the line in your destruction of "racist" monuments and how you/others in their ivory towers will deem what is and what isn't racist and who makes those determinations? Is it "intellectuals" like yourself who think it's appropriate to call those who disagree with you names? Or should it be local authorities and states who want to make sure they do what is right? Or should it be vandals who break the law by defacing things they disagree with?
 
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steross

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NOTHING I said rationalizes racism. What you just wrote...I must say...is complete BS and a total misrepresentation of the truth of what I typed...seems you, like much of the left, no matter how intelligent they may be, also stoops to calling people racist (who aren't) when they have lost an argument. Nice.
Sorry. What you wrote is defending racism. It simply is. There is no two ways about it. Have a pity party about it if you want. Call me "the left" if you want. You are defending racism and it is plain as day to everyone. If saying that what you are doing makes you feel that I am calling you racist, then I suggest that you consider stepping out of your white guy in Oklahoma world view for just a minute and think about what a black man in the South would feel about those statues. Maybe try empathy instead of the constant snowflake "ooooh, you are attacking me for my thoughts" when your thoughts are harmful and now in the distinct minority.

And LOL at me "lost the argument." The statues are coming down all over the place. You are defending a past that is nearly gone. Like a segregationist in the 1980s. Still trying to defend why it is OK even though everyone knows you are out to lunch. Why you want to latch yourself to racism like this I don't know because you have never acted outwardly racist. But, try as you might to rationalize it, defending statues of racists, placed by racists, for racist reasons, well..... it doesn't take a whole lot of intelligence to figure out what that is.

Here is something I am absolutely confident of. If I look back at these words in 10 years, I have the utmost confidence that I will not be embarrassed by what I am saying right now. If I were you, knowing what our world and the future generations think of the subtle and not-so-subtle racism in these things in our society, I bet you will not feel the same way in 10 years.
 

Rack

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Sorry. What you wrote is defending racism. It simply is. There is no two ways about it. Have a pity party about it if you want. Call me "the left" if you want. You are defending racism and it is plain as day to everyone. If saying that what you are doing makes you feel that I am calling you racist, then I suggest that you consider stepping out of your white guy in Oklahoma world view for just a minute and think about what a black man in the South would feel about those statues. Maybe try empathy instead of the constant snowflake "ooooh, you are attacking me for my thoughts" when your thoughts are harmful and now in the distinct minority.

And LOL at me "lost the argument." The statues are coming down all over the place. You are defending a past that is nearly gone. Like a segregationist in the 1980s. Still trying to defend why it is OK even though everyone knows you are out to lunch. Why you want to latch yourself to racism like this I don't know because you have never acted outwardly racist. But, try as you might to rationalize it, defending statues of racists, placed by racists, for racist reasons, well..... it doesn't take a whole lot of intelligence to figure out what that is.

Here is something I am absolutely confident of. If I look back at these words in 10 years, I have the utmost confidence that I will not be embarrassed by what I am saying right now. If I were you, knowing what our world and the future generations think of the subtle and not-so-subtle racism in these things in our society, I bet you will not feel the same way in 10 years.
Where do you draw the line? You didn't answer my question.

Btw, you thinking that all "Black guys" in the South all think alike this is more out of touch than anything I said. Like the fact it would be better to explain the Nazi death camps than to remove them...explain the horrible existence of ancient slave markets rather than gloss them over or attempt to erase history. None of this is racist, but an attempt to educate and explain the sins of man and not repeat them. Statues designed to keep others down should be turned around with inscriptions to show the shame of that practice...not simply removed by those breaking the law and defacing property...no more than the guys Vladimir Lenin statue should be removed by vandals breaking the law and defacing property.
 
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Rack

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What question are you talking about?
Where do we draw the line? Do we tear down all statues of people who owned slaves like Washington and Jefferson?

Oh and why is it a stupid idea to explain rather than tear down? Would it not be better, if it's the case, to explain that a statue was put here to keep a race of people down, when and why and how that was horrible rather than removing it? Like the slave markets and concentration camps? I would think that would be something people need to be reminded of and how we shouldn't tolerate that? Now if someone did good things too why not highlight both the good and bad? What is to fear in that?
 

steross

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Where do you draw the line? You didn't answer my question.

Btw, you thinking that all "Black guys" in the South all think alike this is more out of touch than anything I said. Like the fact it would be better to explain the Nazi death camps than to remove them...explain the horrible existence of ancient slave markets rather than gloss them over or attempt to erase history. None of this is racist, but an attempt to educate and explain the sins of man and not repeat them. Statues designed to keep others down should be turned around with inscriptions to show the shame of that practice...not simply removed by those breaking the law and defacing property...no more than the guys Vladimir Lenin statue should be removed by vandals breaking the law and defacing property.
You just keep repeating yourself. And, you add to your posts after I respond then complain I did not answer. I already answered your question earlier in the thread.

You don't understand the subject. These are not like the Nazi death camps. These statues were added by racists decades after the war. They are not historical relics, they are weapons of racism. NOBODY is talking about removing actual historical items from the time period. The fact that I have explained this to you multiple times yet you keep repeating shows that you do not care about the truth you just want to protect the racism.
And, where did I say "all" black men. I said a black man. And there are hundreds of interviews on the subject available if you cared outside yourself, which you continue to show that you don't.

And, enough with this "intellectual" BS. I am just another Oklahoma kid like nearly everyone else on the board. A position of "we should remove racists statues put up by racists" is not the least bit intellectual. It is just a weak attempt at insult as you are out of your depths.

I really hope that this is just message board bluster from you and like nearly everyone here you just don't like to give a point. Because, and this is true honesty, every word you write I this subject makes me lose respect for you. I absolutely cannot believe you feel this way. I hope it is because you haven't really looked at the history of these statues. Because, if you have and feel that way, you are not a person I can respect.
And that is all I have to say on this subject with you. I really hope you find your way.
 

Rack

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You just keep repeating yourself. And, you add to your posts after I respond then complain I did not answer. I already answered your question earlier in the thread.

You don't understand the subject. These are not like the Nazi death camps. These statues were added by racists decades after the war. They are not historical relics, they are weapons of racism. NOBODY is talking about removing actual historical items from the time period. The fact that I have explained this to you multiple times yet you keep repeating shows that you do not care about the truth you just want to protect the racism.
And, where did I say "all" black men. I said a black man. And there are hundreds of interviews on the subject available if you cared outside yourself, which you continue to show that you don't.

And, enough with this "intellectual" BS. I am just another Oklahoma kid like nearly everyone else on the board. A position of "we should remove racists statues put up by racists" is not the least bit intellectual. It is just a weak attempt at insult as you are out of your depths.

I really hope that this is just message board bluster from you and like nearly everyone here you just don't like to give a point. Because, and this is true honesty, every word you write I this subject makes me lose respect for you. I absolutely cannot believe you feel this way. I hope it is because you haven't really looked at the history of these statues. Because, if you have and feel that way, you are not a person I can respect.
And that is all I have to say on this subject with you. I really hope you find your way.
I believe in law and order and I have a problem with those who don't respect law and order. I respect it myself and would never deface something I detest Like planned parenthood although I feel it is similar to gas chambers. IF statues are deemed as you say then I'm all for the proper channels being taken in the court of law to remove them or repurpose them. I asked specifically about Washington and Jefferson and you didn't answer that. They owned slaves, we have statues that honor them...where does it stop? This is my honest question I don't see an answer too.
 

steross

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I believe in law and order and I have a problem with those who don't respect law and order. I respect it myself and would never deface something I detest Like planned parenthood although I feel it is similar to gas chambers. IF statues are deemed as you say then I'm all for the proper channels being taken in the court of law to remove them or repurpose them. I asked specifically about Washington and Jefferson and you didn't answer that. They owned slaves, we have statues that honor them...where does it stop? This is my honest question I don't see an answer too.
Again, that was answered above. You do not read my posts then say the same thing over and over when already answered. You can look back just as easy as I can.

Many of these racist statues are being taken down by law. You are defending keeping them up. We are not talking about idiots tearing down everything with wanton destruction. Again, already covered.
 
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